Keeping butt warm after cooking

UT Smokey

How long will wrapping a cooked butt in aluminum foil and towels and putting it in a cooler keep the butt warm and ready pull after taking it off the grill? Trying to do ribs and pulled pork to be eaten at the same time.

Hoss

AT LEAST 4 hours.

Ripnem

Without doing anything besides wrapping it in double foil/towels in a cooler. 4 hrs.

Hoss

Btw,you can put it in a 170 degree oven for a LOOOONNNNGGGG time.Double wrapped in HDAF.It won't be as good but it is an option.

NibbleMeThis

Yep, 4 hours like that.

Heck, still too hot to pull sometimes after only 2 hours for me!

Mainegg

I use 4 hours as my top safety zone. I toss a load of towels in the dryer and heat them up and put in the cooler about 20 minutes before I need it and this helps bring the temp up in there. foil pans with foil over the top and towels on the bottom and top all keep it almost to hot to pull when ready. a few minutes over is no biggie but always check the temp. under 145 and it might not be a good thing

2Fategghead

Julie, That's a good idea about warming the cooler by warming the towels in the dryer first. Heck if you have to wait four hours them butts should still be plenty warm.

Hookers educating America! :woohoo:

The Naked Whiz

Holding Meat In a Cooler

fishlessman

would be interesting to chart out the ambiant temps in the cooler or maybe the temp between the foil and the meat to know when the surface hit 140. its till safe in my opinion with the salt and smoke being on the surface but the food nazis wouldnt let it go, i think little chef even said they dropped the 4 hour rule down to 2 hours but i may be confused with that one :laugh:

Jeffersonian

I seem to remember a guy telling me he would put some bricks on the Egg for a while and put them into the cooler with the butts to help keep them warm longer. Anything with a decent amount of heat retention would work: Blocks of metal, stone, etc.

Fidel

Here's the question no one seems to be able to answer.

You take a piece of meat that has been in a smoky, salty, high-heat environment for 8-10+ hours. You wrap it in foil which is basically pretty close to sterile - no bacteria are growing on it with lack of moisture, food, or air. And if there are any there they are immediately exposed to temps above 140&deg thereby hurting their little feelings if nothing else.

How do more bacteria get introduced to the surface of the meat to begin growing and spewing forth their little nastiness that can make us sick?

Jeffersonian

Good point, Rod. The ServSafe guidelines are very clear about time and temperature, but surely the science behind them is a bit more nuanced and linear. I asked something similar a few months ago, including other aspects like food acidity, and well, the thread didn't go well.

I mean, surely things aren't hunky-dory at 141*F and dire at 139*F. I think this is a fascinating topic.

fishlessman

because one in every one hundred and twenty million gets sick :laugh: why can i eat from a turkey for a couple days thats stored around fifty degrees or so sitting on my basement fridge not in it, why can i keep chili on the stove and heat it once a day and leave it there til its done, why can i eat pizza from a box that sat on the counter over night. why does chilis ask me how i want my burger cooked and then tell me the lowest they will cook it is medium :laugh:

Humphrey Chimpden Earwicker

i'm with you.

all warnings about keeping cooked food at safe temps ALWAYS assume cross contamination (serving utensils, people coughing into it, etc.) as a source for the bacteria.

no bacteria are magically springing from the ether. botulism spores could survive, but is that risk real?

Humphrey Chimpden Earwicker

heck... i think we ask this once a year, for a few years at least.

there are a lot of factors, and though i beat on the whole "food safety" thing.... i have to say that when you are running a roadside stand and hire teens in hair nets to cook and serve food, you do need a straight line across the bottom or top of a temp range. can't rely on people in a fast food environment to make nuanced decisions.

there are a good many procedures which fall outside the range of the all-encompassing rule(s).

why does a commercial ham say "keep refrigerated" while artisanal ones can be found hanging in ambient room temps?

funny thing to cure a ham, hang it for a year, then cook it to 140 on easter, slice it, and then throw it out in mortal fear four hours later.

Jeffersonian

I couldn't agree more about the teenager scenario. People working for minimum wage under time and performance pressures aren't likely to understand or track a more variable set of time limits. I stand at the counter of Jimmy John's feeling better knowing ServSafe exists and is (presumably) being followed.

My interest, at least at this point, isn't practical, though your posts and Ruhlman have me thinking I need to start pushing boundries with cures and such. Your comment about the artisanal ham is very apt.

Little Chef

Fishlessman: 'Danger zone' is still 4 hours hold time. There was some skuttle-but a year or so ago, but it remains 4 hours. Thanks for bringing it up.

Little Chef

Risking going into another 'banging my head against the wall' debate... :laugh:

This post was focused on poultry. The bacteria may vary from meat to meat (edit: or food to food for that matter), but the same principle applies. I share the info, and if you choose to apply it or not is up to you.

I have heard the argument that food is “sterilized” during the cooking process. Certain bacteria are killed at certain temperatures, but in no way can the meat be considered ‘sterile’. There are still anaerobic bacteria that survive the cooking process, such as Staph, E.Coli, or Salmonella, but are kept within safe levels, provided the food is not within the “danger zone”. Once within the danger zone however, these bacteria are in a prime environment for multiplying, which can cause a food related illness. For example, one surviving C. Jejuni or Salmonella bacterium can multiply to several million in 8 hours, and thousands of millions within 12 hours. Bacteria are always present in meat, even after cooking. But the bacteria levels are held at bay, provided temperatures exceed 140*. So as a final example, you carve the turkey, and when placed on the table it is still good and hot…..say 130*. After 6 hours on the table, that meat has spent hours in the danger zone, allowing those bacteria to multiply. That tempting plate of turkey sitting there for 6 hours, now contains literally millions of bacteria….certainly enough to cause a food related illness. Please be aware how dramatic the result can be if food is not handled properly.

fishlessman

now how does that apply to a butt in a cooler where the cooler may be 120 in a few hours and the meat is still above 140 because thats what most of us are doing, not measuring the cooler temps while it rests in the cooler which means surface temps on that butt are low.

Jeffersonian

I regret having been the cause of one of those head-banging sessions, but I honestly wasn't looking for a debate or even a mild disagreement.

Then, as now, I was just wondering to what extent each of the relevant factors (I remember you had an acronym for them, but I forget what it is...getting old stinks) affects the rate of microbe growth. Surely we're not indifinitely safe at 39* and in mortal danger after four hours at 41*, no? Incubators operate at very precise temperatures to maximize the effect we're trying to avoid, so I assume there's an ideal temperature at which orgamisms grow, so how much does that diminish the farther we get from that ideal?

I realize this is probably outside the scope of what you teach, but if you have any information on it, I'd be grateful.

Little Chef

Not exactly positive this is what you are asking, but I think the answer is, I have encouraged people to monitor the meat temp while it is in the cooler, because even if it is out of sight, the 140* would still apply for timing purposes. Is that what you were asking?

fishlessman

what i was wondering is it just the meat internal that counts because wrapped in foil sitting on a hot picnic table, the internals could still be 140 maybe 3 or 4 hours later. no one is measuring how hot the cooler is, dead center of the butt could be 140, but the surface isnt

Little Chef

Jeffersonian:

The acronym was FATTOM (FAT TOM). Bacteria has to have these to grow:

Food: (nutrients) The ideal 'food' for bacteria is protein and carbs. (commonly found in meat, poultry, dairy products, eggs)

Acidity: Bacteria grows best in pH from 4.6 to 7.5. Yes, it can grow in lower, and it can grow in higher, but that is the 'ideal' range.

Temperature: Microorganisms grow 'best' between 41*-135*, this of course will vary from organism to organism, and meeting all the other criteria here for whatever that particular organism needs to survive or thrive. (and no, I am no scientist, so I am not even going to try to examine what 'bug' needs what time and what condition, what temp, etc).

Time: They need time to multiply.

Oxygen: Some organisms need oxygen, but some are anaerobic.

Moisture: Most organisms need moisture to grow.

Again, this is painting a 'general' scenario to protect us from 'most' situations. They've done their best to write a 'black and white' policy for a 'how many scenarios can we cover in one rule and make it understandable', as opposed to expecting cooks to understand (and this I am just making up) C Jejuni grows best at 6.3pH at a temp of 122.5* at 2.4 hours after dropping below 135*. Hope that helps.

Fidel

That was way too long to read and contains too many big words, so let's just pretend that I read it and you agree with me. K?

Mainegg

I hear you but what I do at home to ME is one thing what they do in a restaurant to the public is another. I have an iron gut and do the same as you... but if Neil eats the same thing.. not pretty

Little Chef

Fidel: Lemme think on this for a moment...

Ummmmmm...No. :laugh:

Little Chef

fishless...If kept in a stable environment (ie contant heat surroundings, in this case, your cooler) the meat temps will remain quite stable throughout. Won't be much difference, if any, between surface and center, when it is all exposed to the same heat.

Jeffersonian

That's the sorta thing I was after, thanks, LC.

Keep cool...it's hotter'n the hinges of Hell in Atlanta today

Little Chef

Jeffersonian: I was doing some research to confirm pH levels for shelf stable items for Midnight Smokers post, and came accross this site. I immediately thought of you! Great site, addressing specific bacteria, growth rates, ideal conditions, temperatures, etc. I think you will appreciate this info. :laugh:

http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/FS/FS-15-W.pdf