Pizza Crust Experiences

Pakak

Has anyone else besides me been unsatisfied with how their pizza crusts taste? I’ve tried several different recipes and they all have tasted “bready” to me. I’ve looked at hundreds (literally) of recipes and they all look about the same. My conclusion has become it must be the quality of the ingredients themselves, since all the recipes are basically the same.[p]One thing I did note in one recipe was it called for “high gluten flour”. So, I went looking for high gluten flour, with no luck. However, I did find gluten flour. The package said to add it to regular flour at the rate of one tablespoon per cup of regular flour. I decided to get a higher quality flour too and chose King Arthur White Whole Wheat Flour (though their bread flour may have been better, but was out of stock). [p]I have to say, this was the BEST crust I’ve ever made, by far. The high gluten content made it very difficult to form into a crust, but it was worthwhile. I didn’t refrigerate the dough overnight which might (I hope) make the dough more manageable. I’m including a link to the recipe I used, except I added 2 tablespoons of gluten flour. Another notable difference is there is very little yeast in the recipe. NOTE: This recipe only made one pizza crust the size of my large BGE pizza stone.[p][p]Pizza Dough Recipe[/p]

KennyG

Pakak,[p]Our longtime resident pizza king, Spin, had this figured out years ago. Just check the archives below.[p]K~G

[ul][li]Pizza by the Master[/ul]

Pakak

KennyG,[p]It just goes to show different people have different tastes, I guess. While I like cornbread, I'm not convinced I'd like pizza crust with that much cornmeal in it. Other than that, everything else is much like any other recipe I've seen. I may be wrong, but I'm convinced the difference in the way I made mine (which fit my taste) is attributible to the gluten flour. I could toss the crust, something I've never been brave enough to try before.

Bama Egger

I have heard that high gluten is good for pizza dough. If you can't find gluten flour look for flour specifically made for bread machines, it has better gluten content than all purpose flour. I think I heard this from Alton Brown.

Unknown

Paul,
you can buy just plain ol bread flour also or pastry flour

BridgeMan

Pakak,
I have a little information that might be helpful. Gluten is what promotes chewiness in a crust.
All purpose flour has mid level gluten (approx 11.7% gluten). The suggestion that bread flour has higher gluten is correct. Bread flour has around 12.7 % gluten. (For those good with numbers, biscuit/cake flour is in the 8% range, whole wheat in the 13-14% range, and if you buy Sir Lancelot from King Arthur, it has 14.2% gluten).
Its basically your taste but if you use a higher gluten flour in a lower gluten recipe, you will need to add a little more water. As to gluten flour, you probably found vital gluten (gluten flour is, basically, a redundancy). Vital gluten does enhance and raise the level of gluten in the bread so you get the same effect but it is easy to overdo and you end up with a crust that tastes like a bagel. If anyone is interested in this stuff, bakerscatalogue.com (from King Arthur Flours)has lots of flours/info.
I usually use a recipe out of The Bread Lover's Bread Machine Cookbook:
1 1/3 cups water
1/4 cup extra virgin olive oil
3.5 cups unbleached all purpose flour
1 tablesp sugar
1.5 teasp. salt
2.0 teasp. SAF yeast (or 2.5 teasp bread machine yeast)
I usually throw in some italian seasoning from Penzeys in the crust as well.[p]Hope this helps some.
Bridgeman[p]

ranger ray

Pakak,
i buy my dough from the local pizza guy....he's an afficiando....told him a story about how i built my own wood fired oven(almost the truth) and he sells me a hunk of dough for two bucks...makes three small pizzas on the egg...i also use bread dough that i make in my bread machine,,,not as good as "dino's" but still not too bad...i use bread flour that i buy from sam's club....

KennyG

Pakak,[p]Maybe I commented too soon. I've tried many pizza dough recipes and standardized on Spin's a while back. Your suggestion is certainly worth a try and would seem a nice change of pace.[p]I'll give it a shot soon since every Sunday is pizza Sunday during football season here at the house.[p]Did you use a bread machine or elec. mixer?[p]K~G

Bill in VA

Pakak,[p]I understand what you're saying. While I think my dough makes a great crust I still want to improve it. Some times the outer crust is a little "bready", not real "light" light a good pizza joint's. My recipe is a very basic flour, water, yeast, little salt, little oil recipe. I'm sure you've tried something close to it.[p]I cut back on my yeast(1/2) and that helped a lot. I also make sure I cook that sucker as long as I can. One extra minute can make a big difference. I usually go till the top of the pizza is just starting to get some real dark spots in the cheese. Around this time the crust is usually where I want it. [p]I cook my pizza's around 450-500ºF on a raised grill with a heat deflector on the main grill. [p]In my home we like the pizza crust thin and crispy.[p]Bill

HighMedLow

Pakak,[p]On a Tyler Florence show, a couple of days ago, he described that adding the salt to soon has an detramental effect on the yeast. The Spin recipe (& the New York style also)adds it after "proof'ing".
Alton's recipe adds it right away.

Another thought, Olive Oil: We know there are three grades, with the major difference being the acid content. I'm sure that has an effect also, to add lowest (Extra Virgin), med (virgin), or highest acid content. [p]Hummm, make some samples of each kind - or perhaps someone has already tried this and can give us a report.[p]HML

Gretl

Pakak,
I always make pizza dough in the Cuisinart. I proof the yeast first, then use a 3 to 1 flour to water ratio, and add some good olive oil and coarse Kosher salt. I always use King Arthur special for bread flour. I also keep a box of gluten in the fridge; a teaspoon or so doesn't hurt. Now that you have me thinking of Egged pizza, I'd better make some soon. It's been ages. [p]We like thin crispy crusts. I make them in 12-inch pans (which have been sprinkled with a little cornmeal), and put the pan on the pizza stone in a hot (about 450) Egg. After about 5 minutes, I slide the pizza off the pan onto the stone. This accomplishes two things; it sort of "sets" the bottom of the dough, reducing the chance of catastrophe, and it frees you up to make more assembly-line pies. You have one ready to put on as you slide the completed pie out of the oven. I use a pizza peel to get 'em out.[p]Keep Eggsperimenting.
Cheers,
Gretl

Pakak

KennyG,[p]I used the Kithenaid with a dough hook. Since doing that, I also proffed the yeast. I'm seeing if I can better my results, as I've have a batch in the fridge for tonight.

Pakak

Paul,[p]I think I did hit the mark with the texture I'm looking for with this combination. The only drawback was the workability. As I made another batch last night, I noticed I had misread the length of time to knead the dough. Plus, I added just a bit more water. This batch seems like it will be much easier to roll out.

Pakak

Wil,[p]I figured those would work. Like I said, they were out of stock with the bread flour. I've never used the pastry flour, but isn't it finer ground? I'm shooting for a heartier texture - chewy and crusty, like a good Italian or French bread (like a baguette).

Pakak

Bridgeman,[p]You're correct - I found Vital Wheat Gluten Flour, made by Bob's Red Mill. For anyone interested who cannot find it (or would just rather let their fingers do the walking) they have a website. It seems like the small, 22 oz. bag would last for a looong time.[p]You're also correct the amount of water needs to be increased slightly. I'm not an expert breadmaker, but I tried doing this last night as I made my next attempt. Increasing the water, maybe tablespoon+, and kneading the dough longer seems to have helped the workability tremendously.[p]Thanks a bunch for the info about the gluten contents. I was looking for that very information on the bags but could not find it. The tablespoon per cup of flour seemed to work well for the texture I was seeking, using the white whole wheat flour.

Pakak

ranger ray,[p]That would work for me also, but I'm not sure any pizza guys would sell it to me. We don't have any Publix here either. I guess I've just been challenged by trying to come up with something on my own. LOL

Pakak

Bill in VA,[p]Yep, it seems like this recipe has less yeast in it than many other recipes I've tried (1 tsp/2 c flour). I'm pretty certain yeast was giving my other crusts that "bready" taste. Who wants pizza fixins on top of a loaf of bread? The gluten also gave it a texture I like, nice and chewy.

Pakak

HighMedLow,[p]Yes, adding the salt too soon would affect the yeast. I made this with my Kitchenaid, so I proofed the yeast before adding to the flour. Which reminds me - there is a note in the recipe (way at the bottom) that says some people have found it too salty. They recommend cutting back on the salt AND sugar by 1 tsp. That's the way I made it.

Pakak

Gretl,[p]Sounds like your taste in crust most approximates mine. I'm having a hard time visualizing the pan process though. Is the pan more like a cookie sheet, with no raised side? Or, do you use a cake pan, upside down? Otherwise, how do you slide the pizza off?[p]So far, I haven't had any major disasters, but I do like the idea of something for an assemblyline process. One pizza is more like an appetizer for several people.

Unknown

While looking for a new recipe for crust the other day, I noticed Mario Batali has a new program called Ciao America which starts October 1st. The first program is on pizza and they claim viewers will learn to make the perfect crust. hehehe Anyway, I plan on checking it out.[p]I did see one of his crust recipes, but it called for wine. The problem is, I'm not much of a drinker and the recipe only required 1/4 cup. I wasn't about to buy an $8 -$10 (guessing) bottle of wine for a crust if I didn't even know if I'd like to drink it.[p]Pakak aka Mark

Bill in VA

I've also had better results using "instant" yeast, a.k.a. bread machine yeast, instead of rapid rise. I mix the dry yeast right in with the flour before adding the water. It has also greatly improved my breads. Some day I'll get to using a leaven but until then it's yeast.[p]A site with good info on pizzas is the bulletin board at www.pizzatoday.com. It's mostly for commercial users but lot's of good info, just have to convert all the info into small batches for us home users.[p]Good Luck,
Bill

ChefFubar

Pakak,
Well, I had to jump into this one! I have been baking for a long time, and have some idea of what you are unhappy with. The "high glutten" thing has to do with the protein character of flours made from the variety of grains that are typically used to make baked products. The higher the gluten content, the more the potential for leavening, and making the dough rise. This is not a critical property for pizza dough, and most of the other "flat breads", but becomes important for light and fluffy rolls, breads, cakes, etc. You made an excellent decision to go with the King Arthur line of flours.[p]When I make pizza dough, focaccia, naan, and other baked goods that I do not want to be fluffy, I add some proportion of low glutten flours such as semolina, or rye, that do not tend to form a fiberous network (gluten) that traps the carbon dioxide gas produced by the carbohydrate fermentation by yeast, and become foamy or fluffy.[p]Your concern over the "bready" taste you have experienced, is probably from raw flour in the dough, possibly caused by insulating the top surface of the pizza crust with toppings. To avoid this, I always bake my pizza for approximately one half of the planned time, without any toppings; I then remove the crust, and quickly apply the sauce, one half the cheeses, other toppings, remainder if cheeses, and return to oven or BGE to cook for remainder of time. If I feel that I spent more time applying the sauce and toppings than necessary, I add five or so minutes to the planned baking time. This two step approach prevents the "bready" taste you described, and the chance for soggy, gummy dough beneath the toppings, which to me is disgusting.[p]For all its worth --- Chef Fubar

Pakak

Chef Fubar,[p]Everything you say makes a lot of sense, except for one thing. I thought semolina was very high in gluten, which is why it makes good pasta. Actually, I had thought of substituting some semolina instead of the gluten flour for this very reason. Now you have me confused, which isn't hard to do! LOL

ChefFubar

Pakak,
You should be confused!! I just saw your reply, reread what I had written, and confused myself. I should have said that you can add HIGH GLUTEN flours, such as rye or semolina, to strengthen weak, soft flours that you often encounter on supermarket shelves. I don't recall ever having to reinforce the King Arthur bread, or white wheat flours.
Sorry about the error! I will email you some additional information that you may find helpful.