Pizza Question

Perkysgang

My wife, once again, surprised me at Christmas with accessories for my BGE. This time it was a plate setter and pizza stone for my large BGE.

I did a bunch of research on the web and this site regarding how to make the dough, what commerical canned sauce to use, how to make it and bake it.

All went well except I wasn't happy with the dough. In particular, the consistency of the dough.

I used a high gluten flour (King Arthur all purpose). I also used my bread maker to facilitate the mixing and proofing of the dough.

I think where the dough went wrong is I went straight from the bread maker to the baking process.

I have read afterwards about people allowing their pizza dough to rise overnight or longer in order to get the dough to be light and airy which is the consistency I am seeking.

My dough was dense and had none of the characteristic bubbles or holes in that my local pizza joint's dough displays.

Any thoughts about what I can do to get closer to that type of dough results?

Also, I plan on making my own pizza sauce once I can locate a good source for the ingredients (specifically Cento San Marzano tomatoes).

Any suggestions or hints on making a good pizza sauce?

Boxerpapa

"ping" Zippylip, he has an awesome recipe that is very easy to make.

FearlessGrill

Hi,

Here's a link (http://www.fearlesskitchen.com/2008/07/recipe-pizza-al.html) to a writeup of the pizza dough and technique I like to use. Note that to get the dough more 'airy' as you say requires giving the yeast time to act, something to act on (sugar) and less to inhibit their action (salt). You will see in this recipe that I treat this like a bread dough, letting it rise, punching it down, and letting it rise again before using it. I use a high ratio of sugar to salt, giving the yeast plenty to eat, and less to stop it. I used a stand mixer, but you should be able to use your bread machine no problem. If you don't know how to convert the recipe, email me and I'll do it for you.



My wife developed a sauce recipe that came out quite good, and that we liked better than any store-bought one we've tried. Here's the link to the recipe: http://www.fearlesskitchen.com/2008/07/recipe-pizza-sa.html

Enjoy!

-John

AZRP

Here is how I do it. -RP

http://www.eggheadforum.com/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&func=view&id=565484&catid=1

civil eggineer

I use a full bodied beer for the liquid and allow the dough to develop in the fridge for at least 16 hours.

Perkysgang

Thanks for the link to your site!

A question for you regarding the yeast... Do you add your yeast to warm water to "bloom" your yeast before adding the rest of the ingredients? If so, how long do you let it sit?

The dough recipe I used was designed for use in breadmakers. As such, they always want you to put the wet ingredients in before the dry and always have you put the yeast in last.

The more I read, the more I am likely to make my next dough using my wife's Kitchenaid mixer with bread dough hook to mix.

Fidel

I notice a contradiction in your post. You say you used high gluten flour, but then you say it was King Arthur All Purpose. This is not a high gluten flour.

If you want a springy, chewy dough with lots of air holes, bubbles, and a crisp exterior you need to use bread flour at a minimum and the Sir Lancelot if you can get it. It certainly won't hurt to add a Tbsp or so of vital wheat gluten to the mix.

More importantly, you need to knead the dough - a lot. The more you knead the more the gluten chains can form. After about 20 minutes pull off a piece of dough and check for the "baker's windowpane". If you don't get it, knead for 3 more minutes and check again. Repeat until you get it and do not knead beyond that point.

Then allow the dough to rise at least 3-4 hours and refrigerate overnight. The next day set it out for 3-4 more hours to raise the temp and then shape your pie.

Perkysgang

When you add your beer, do you let it come to room temp or add it straight from the fridge?

Fidel

Blooming the yeast depends if you are using instant yeast or fast rising yeast.

Instant does not need to be bloomed, fast rising should be for best results.

At a minimum I like to dissolve the yeast in a liquid prior to mixing in dry ingredients just to give it a head start and make sure it gets more evenly distributed.

Perkysgang

Thanks RP for the link to your previous post.

I did see your post when I did my original research but got caught up in "pizza fever" and decided to go straight to making the pizza after making the dough.

Now that I have tasted the "fruit" of my impatience, I will wait the extra time next time to let the dough proof overnight in my fridge.

One issue I do have with proofing on the countertop... Our kitchen is rather cool during the wintertime (we only keep the house at 63 degrees normally - I like it cool!)

Will my dough still rise with those kinds of temps or will I need to do something like provide a source of warmth like I saw Alton Brown do on the Food Network when he suggested using a warming pad under his dough?

Perkysgang

I was limited in what I could find at the grocery store when I went looking for ingredients to make my first pizza (which is why I went with a canned sauce).

I did a bit of research on the web and there are people who recommended using King Arthur all purpose flour for pizza since it contains an higher than normal amount of gluten which is why I went with it.

I will check out the flour you recommend and see if I can find it locally.

I really appreciate your advice on how to get my dough to the consistency I am seeking.

I would love to find a good local source for my ingredients... I know where there is a local Italian grocery store nearby and plan on paying them a visit to see what they have.

Fidel

Just remember that nearly any brand bread flour will have a higher percentage of protein than all-purpose.

And make sure your flour is unbleached.

I am a big fan of King Arthur products. Their bread flour is terrific for pizza dough.

I have actually seen the vital wheat gluten at Wal-Mart of all places, but not in major grocery stores.

Another good alternative is to substitute about 1/2 cup of semolina flour for the bread flour. That will really give your dough some stretch.

Perkysgang

Thanks Rod F!

I greatly appreciate the help!

I had to look up "baker's windowpane" and found a website which describes the process.

I am looking forward to putting all of this great advice into my next pizza.

mkc

In addition to all the great advice you've gotten here, pay a visit to www.pizzamaking.com and check out their discussion forum. Those guys and gals have helped me make a quantum leap in my pizza making knowledge and skills. What this forum is to Egging, they are to pizza - lots and lots of help, everyone sharing their knowledge and very patient with new board members.

I learned about the board from some of the folks here.

The info in the NY style topic should be of particular interest to the type of pizza it sounds like you're wanting to make.

Perkysgang

Michelle,

You are correct... I am seeking to replicate a New York style crust since I live in Eastern Pennsylvania and grew up munching on that style.

I found that site (www.pizzamaking.com) during my research and have visited it several times since my hasty first attempt.

I do admit, however, I am a bit confused (and overwhelmed!) by their use of percentages rather than cups and tablespoons that we nubies use for dough and sauce recipes.

I also was fascinated by the guy (it looks like he is actually a chef) who spends many hours honing his pizza making skills and posts his results for all to benefit from.

Thanks for your help!

Fidel

One piece of advice if you plan to make doughs regularly is to measure by weight and not volume.

A cup of loose flour can weigh under 4 ounces, but packed heavily it can weigh over 5. If you use 4 cups - you could in essence be adding nearly a cup too much or too little.

I use a standard of 4.24 ounces per cup of flour. Many recipes can easily be converted.

tjv

more than you ever want to know about the ZA!
http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/_home_encyclopizza.htm

tjv

Hey Michelle, my daughter Kelsie played the Robson back nine yesterday, high school kids. She shot 43, came home all smiles......

Perkysgang

Tjv,

What a great site for all things "Za"!

Thanks for sharing!

AZRP

I remember that episode and yes it will take a lot longer to rise at 63 degrees. You could turn your oven on for a few minutes getting it to say 90 degrees then shut it off and proof in there. The overnight in the fridge thing is for flavor, I've made many pizzas right after the first rise and they were good. -RP

civil eggineer

I warm the beer up to around 100 degrees so the yeast are happy.

mkc

Don't worry about all those percentages, just get yourself a good scale (with both English and metric) and use one of the recipes already posted (especially if it's one Pete-zaa has played around with).

I'm a huge fan of the JerryMac dough done as a cool rise (make it Wednesday, bake it Friday). I posted it here about a week ago. It's all in weights and makes one pizza's worth of dough for the 14" BGE stone. Right now I have a Canadave dough in the fridge. This is my first experiment with the Canadave, which is a longer cool-rise (5 days) that has less yeast but a little sugar in it.

King Arthur Sir Lancelot (KASL) is hard to find in a store, but you can mail-order it from King Arthur. Their bread flour should be much easier to find. I use Gold Medal Better for Bread (aka Harvest King) quite successfully in the JerryMac dough.

One of the challenges you'll find with the JM is that it's not very elastic; it's pretty darned floppy. It's easy to shape but difficult to pick up and move after shaping. I'd recommend having some parchment ready to go and to finish your patting of the pizza skin on that (sprinkle a little semolina or cornmeal on it first). Then have a peel or a rimless cookie sheet to support it while you top and transport. If you want to get fancy look for a Silicone Zone pizza mat. I found one at a gourmet store and it's exactly the size of the BGE 14" stone. I use that instead of the parchment and it helps me shape a nice, round pizza. I only leave it in place for a few minutes when baking, just so the crust sets, then I pull it out so the pizza does most of its baking directly in contact with the stone.

Oh, and don't use a pin to roll out the dough - it will push too much of the air out. Pat and stretch by hand if at all possible.

Perkysgang

RP,

Thanks for shedding light on the reason for the overnight fridge.

I will go with Rod F's kneeding technique to get the dough chewy next time.

Just curious... What "taste" develops by the overnight rest in the fridge? Does it get rid of some of the fresh flour taste?

civil eggineer

Smells like beer, even without using beer, because of the yeast. That's why I use beer to begin with. No you don't taste the beer once it is cooked.

Perkysgang

Great advice Michelle!

I did use parchment paper cut just a bit smaller than my stone so it would not scorch or burn. That way I knew how big to make my pizza. I also hand formed it rather than using a device to roll it. I was pleased with the look of that pizza, not the taste (not chewy enough).

Thanks again!

mkc

Hey Tom - tell her congrats! I don't think I've ever gotten less than 50 on the back 9.

Oh, and would you kindly tell the economy to whip itself back into shape so I can get the adjustable rig? The tanking in October has put us in essential-expenses-only mode :(

Unknown

to make a good nyc pizza dough, you can get away with 9 hr room temp rise....but for much better flavor, crust coloration, etc...a cold fermentation of 3 days is ideal.