OT-Home Security

Celtic Wolf

Akela wouldn't have let them in the house in the first place. :laugh:

Well actually he likes my Mother-in-law and my Father-in-law doesn't come in our house.

Unknown

Your post wasn't about the gun ownership debate, rather you asked about home security system and I responded. If you don't like my answer, then don't ask. You were begging for this to happen. If you want to see a better answer maybe you should seek another forum regarding home security sytems rather than the Big Green Egg forum where usually food is more of an appropriate topic.

Car Wash Mike

Have you watched a Soccer Match over there? :woohoo: Max, you are correct. The legal guns will wait the 7 days, the illegal guns don't. They need to steal/kill now. They don't have 7 days to wait for their next fix.

Mike

mad max beyond eggdome

well, at least in japan, i just did a little checking, in all of 2006 there were exactly 2006 53 shooting cases, including 36 involving mobsters. Two people were killed and 17 wounded. . .thats it, in the entire country. . . .so yes, not allowing people to own guns does prevent people from shot in gun crimes. ..go figure. . :woohoo:

AZRP

The 225lb little feller is doing pretty good. If it wasn't so friggin hot, we would be walking him 1/2 mile a day. -RP

Celtic Wolf

The Japanese even in crime are more honorable then other nations. 53 REPORTED cases. I wonder how many go unreported, because of fear.

Car Wash Mike

Akela, wouldn't have choice if it was your wife's sister.

Mike

mad max beyond eggdome

oh please, its still miniscule on a per-capita basis. ..and the reason is simple . . .no guns, no gun crimes... its an old and lame argument: "if you take the guns away, the only ones with guns will be the bad guys.". ..yes, thats true today, and even tomorrow. . .we've put so many weapons out there that it will take years and years to get them all off the streets. ...but you gotta start somewhere. . .oh, and where did all these illegal handguns originate anyway??. ..mostly from irresponsible legal gun owners that unloaded guns that were originally legally purchased and then were basically dumped on a saturated market and then got "lost" in the system. .. .so when that "crackhead" goes breaking into your house and blows away your loved one, or you, and they trace back his gun, they usually find it started out with some legitimate owner somewhere who shrugs his shoulders and says "gee whiz, i didn't do anything wrong" ....look at the guy that sold the guns to mr. cho at va. tech. .. just another responsible citizen making a buck. ...

Celtic Wolf

Ohhhh my friend that is where you would be 200% wrong..

Akela can't stand my sister-in-law, but then again either can my wife!!

Car Wash Mike

OMG! Didn't know that. How is 200% wrong worse than 100%. Kinda like a ball player giving 110%? Where did that extra 10% come from? A magical hat? :woohoo: Or Grape Boys Vineyard? :woohoo:

Mike

Car Wash Mike

Don't they just Kung Foo and use knives to kill over their? :woohoo: I mean a clean shot to the throat is cleaner than a bullet. Yea?
Mike

mad max beyond eggdome

LOL. ..much more honorable with a sharp blade mike-oh-san . . .

and on that note, i'm going to bed!! :blink:

Celtic Wolf

Truth of the matter is if you ban guns they will just find other ways to kill people. One of your referenced countries is a good example. England is now considering outlawing knives because crimes involving knives is out of control.

Furthermore neither Japan or the UK have Parliamentary Right to bare arms.

Remember, you have a Constitutional right to disagree with me and our 2nd Amendment rights guarantee you always will.

I will refrain from further argument on this subject on this forum.

mad max beyond eggdome

touche my friend, its what makes america great! (and not so great at the same time). . .and like i said to mike, now i'm going to bed. . .

Celtic Wolf

You have never met my Sister-in-law. If you did you would not question where the extra 100% came from..

I swear she was dropped on her head from a great height and survived..

WileECoyote

I will not take the bait by responding to the anti-gun arguments, political debates, dog photos, or other issues that have been inappropriately inserted here. If you are passionate about those topics then please start separate threads and I will gladly join in the conversations.

Now to get this thread back on track:

The purpose of an alarm is not to physically secure or protect you. It is merely to alert you, your neighbors, and/or the emergency responders when a serious threat exists. Physical security is provided by some of the other items that I mentioned: proper locks, reinforced doors, better lighting and landscaping, etc. as well as many items which I did not include.

Once the physical security is in place then you need a good alarm to warn you when someone attempts or begins to breech your physical security measures. In most cases the alarm won't scare away the serious criminals but it will usually get rid of the vandals or young inexperienced offenders. The main thing is that it needs to respond promptly and loudly enough to immediately wake you and your neighbors and visibly mark your home as the site of trouble. A dog is a legitimate part of an alarm system but not foolproof or complete. We have all seen our dogs sleep through wild activities as often as they wake at the smallest sounds, and a dog can be taken out with a single shot from even the simplest weapon including pepper spray, a knife, or even a treat or toy. Once you have been properly alerted then it is time for you to do your part, the hard and dangerous part.

Within seconds of waking up or being alerted, you need to quickly and seriously check the alarm status and determine where and what the potential threats are. If you have a high quality alarm that is properly installed then you won't have false alarms, thus your response will not be one of "ho hum, wonder what that dog has knocked over now..." but more like "oh crap, there is a serious threat to my family right here right now..."

A good alarm will give you enough advanced warning to wake up and get moving along with lots of status info quickly. An open window or door at the back of the house are much more likely to represent trouble than motion in your second floor hallway assuming that no other sensors have been disabled or tripped. Like I said, this is one reason why you want hard-wired window and door sensors instead of the cheaper and popular catch-all motion detectors.

Next you need to decide on your response and take the appropriate action quickly. You don't want to be guessing or planning during an emergency when you are half asleep or when the adrenaline just kicked in. You should already have a plan defined in advance which the family members are aware of, at least for the most common scenarios, and then you simply execute the chosen plan.

In most cases my plan includes immediately turning out all lights in the home which I can do with one button by remote control. I know the layout of the home, the criminals usually do not, so the darkness is my friend. Next I take steps to protect my family in a safe area, which could be as simple as waking the wife and arming her with a phone to call 911, then positioning her behind a barricade in a locked safe room with a firearm just in case things go bad. Depending on what I see and hear then I might join her and simply wait it out, which is usually the safest response assuming that you are in a truly safe room and well armed with a reliable phone connection (a cellular backup, not wired service).

If you have family in other parts of the home or if you do not see signs of serious trouble then you might elect to search the home. This is when people can get surprised, injured, taken hostage, or killed. You need to remember that if you have a good alarm then there is a serious risk of real trouble. You can't just fumble around in the dark and burp your way to the kitchen for a snack leftover from the egg. You need to be careful, move slow, and do it in a controlled safe manner. They teach week-long courses on this topic alone but I have seen some good DVDs which are only 1-2 hours and very helpful for the average homeowner.

Once the family members are safe and protected and you are reasonably sure that the interior of your home is safe then you should stay inside and begin thinking about what you will do if the crap hits the fan. Keep thinking about plans B, C, and even D while you are waiting for the police to arrive.

I won't go into more detail on the gun topic but as a firearms instructor I do feel obligated to say one thing about using guns for self defense in the home: handguns are fine but in many cases a shotgun is better, and no gun will do you any good at all unless you and every member of your family has been properly trained on firearms safety and they know how to use your firearms effectively.

As for the best place to get alarm systems and parts, there are many suppliers selling direct on the web and even ebay. I found my last alarm panel kits on sale at a plumbing website for only $50 and they were worth $150 or more. I just did some quick checking and a decent low cost alarm panel kit is the Ademco 4110xm - cheapest price I found was a little over $75 plus shipping on ebay. Here is the link. You will still need to buy some accessories such as extra sensors for the windows and doors, 1 or 2 extra keypads, a loud outdoor siren, wire, etc. but these can be purchased cheaply if you take time to shop around. Radio Shack still sells some accessories on their website and at select local stores, and Lowes also has some security accessories although they are a bit pricey. If you are serious and need specific help then send me a PM and I will try to assist further.

Jeffersonian

That would be a Mossberg.

Jeffersonian

Sorry to differ, Max, but the violent crime rate in the UK is far worse than it is in the US.

Celtic Wolf

As you can tell from the hijacking of this thread I don't have a "home security" system. However, I would go with one that does more then security. Does it monitor fire and CO2? Is there a panic button you can push to get a rapid response? Does it have a phone line that is independent of your home phone? If so, what does it do if that line is cut? How low is their percentage of false alarms?

It seems that Brinks and ADT top the list with answers to my questions.

WileECoyote

Good points CW.

Almost all alarm panels have inputs for smoke, fire, and/or C02 alarm sensors. You can add these just like any other accessory. Since many of the newer homes already have pretty good fire and smoke detectors hard-wired into the home then it isn't always worth it to add this feature to your security system.

Regarding the dialer: you can easily call the fire department from a neighbors home once you are out. This is preferred anyway vs. staying in your home to fumble with the phone in a dangerous area. When there is a security threat then you normally don't want to go outside, thus an alarm dialer can be helpful but it does need a reliable phone connection as you have noted. Most dialers can be installed such that they cut off the household phones when they need to dial out, thus preventing someone from disabling the dialer by taking a phone off the hook. A second phone line won't help if it is installed in the same manner as your primary phone line since it could be disabled just as easily as the primary line. Criminals that disable the phone usually do it outside at the junction box before they come in, so to really have a reliable phone line for security then you need to run a second line through hard steel conduit down the pole and underground into the home. Most people just won't do this because of the expense, but thankfully many criminals will not attempt to disable the phone lines anyway so a dialer is worth it assuming that you don't pay a fortune for it or the monitoring service.

Panic buttons are also standard on every alarm panel and most panels also have special distress codes for silent or special alarms. You have to be careful with these because they can lead to false alarms which will greatly diminish the effectiveness of your system in addition to slowing the response of neighbors and police.

The percentage of false alarms is not a valid statistic since each alarm installation is unique and homeowners behave differently. Overall defect rates for their equipment might be helpful but none of the major suppliers publish this info, and from my experience they are all just as reliable as the next brand. Open up those big boxy panels with the fancy shiny stickers and you will see very tiny simplistic circuit boards, almost all made in China from the same parts, and many are made by the same companies anyway and just rebranded. I have repaired and removed a number of fancy ADT systems which cost people well over $1,000 but the parts were only worth about $100.

I am not against going with a pro service. If you don't want to do any research, don't want to do your own install, are willing to spend more than you need to, and you trust a sales rep from the big name providers to do what is best for you then ADT, Brinks, and others can certainly take care of you. An overpriced or incomplete system is usually better than no system at all, provided that you don't set off a lot of false alarms which will discourage your neighbors and police from responding in a timely manner (if at all).

Big'un

Again, Thanks for your help! Where would I find these DVDs you spoke of?

I was glad to see, after reading your handle, that you weren't recommending ACME brand alarms systems. :pinch:

WileECoyote

There are some really good practical videos out there and a lot of bad ones too. I have viewed the following videos and consider them to contain mostly sound, beneficial advice:

NRA Basics of Personal Protection in the Home (DVD) $19.95

NRA Basics of Personal Protection in the Home (VHS) $9.95

House Clearing/Cornering $39.95

Handguns And Home Survival $34.95

Gunsite Close Quarter Tactics $34.95

Also, it is worth taking some NRA classes when you can find a good certified instructor in your area:

Class Listing Site

Many of the best instructors charge a pretty steep rate since that is how they make a living. I make good money in another field so I personally teach firearms classes for free or at my cost just to help people. I have seen a lot of veterans in class as well as women, children 10 and up, military, law enforcement, elderly, etc. and everyone learns a lot and has fun too. It is really a good feeling to teach something you know will make people safer and then see them have so much fun too.

Fidel

FYI, my ADT system does monitor fire (tied in to the hard wired smoke alarms and has 2 of its own), CO2 and attic temperatures. There are 3 emergency buttons - one each for ambulance, fire, and police.

There is also a dual code set. One to arm/disarm, and one to do a distress disarm. If you are jumped in the bushes/garage entering the home and are held at weapon-point, you enter the distress disarm which turns off the system, yet alerts the monitor that you have a potential hostage situation. I know this one brings the police in a quick fashion, and brings several of them.

Regarding phone lines - mine is tied to the standard house phone, also to the internet, and also has a cell service backup that is unique to the unit should the lines be cut or power to the house be interrupted. The master unit itself is on a battery backup.

I do not believe in motion sensors, but I have every entry point in my house with a sensor, including even 3rd story windows on the back of the house.

Again, my main reason for the system is the fire related monitoring. If the house is empty or we are asleep and a fire starts, the fire department will be notified likely before anyone would notice. That peace of mind is worth quite a bit to me.

WileECoyote

Sounds like you have a decent system Fidel. It is great to have several phone connections to the monitoring service. The panel and related functionality is not unique to ADT, you can get the same or better from any panel that you can buy and install on your own. Nothing wrong with buying from ADT, it just costs more, but if it was convenient and gives you peace of mind then it sounds like it was worth it.

My panel has all of that and more and it can be monitored by any company of my choice, or connected to my own dialer to call the police, fire, neighbors, relatives, or anyone else directly and play my choice of pre-recorded customized messages. You are also allowed to have an alarm dial the police and fire department directly, you just need to register your alarm with them and pay a small permit fee which is usually cheaper than the monitoring service, and much faster.

Regarding response times on the fire alarm: in most cases you should be awake and alert before the panel even dials ADT. This is because the alarm should sound at the first hint of fire or smoke and it should be loud enough to wake you quickly. So in most cases you can get out of the house and dial the fire department directly on your own much faster than the panel can dial ADT, ADT checks the panel info. to verify the alarm, ADT calls you to confirm the alarm, and ADT calls the local fire department to relay the info.

911, police, and the fire department will generally respond better and faster to a direct report from a homeowner saying: "My house is on fire at 123 Sesame Street. The fire is burning on the second floor. Everyone is out of the house and safe at the neighbors home except for my 9 year old son Sam who is missing." vs. a call from ADT saying: "We have an automated alarm panel report of possible smoke, heat, or fire at 123 Sesame Street. We tried to call the homeowner but were not able to reach them. We do not know if the home is occupied at this time."

For anyone that is using an alarm with monitoring service from a top provider, I do recommend that you test the response times at least once under real-world conditions just so you know what to expect. In most cases you can explain that it was a test or an accident and they will let you off with a warning. If you do get a false alarm fee then it is usually less than $50, which is well worth it to know for sure what the response times are like for real. I can almost guarantee you that you will be waiting at least 5 minutes and more like 10-20 minutes before anyone shows up, and that is a long time if there really is a fire or criminal in your home. You need to have a good plan (several of them) and be prepared to protect yourself during this critical time.

Fidel

Valid points, but most insurance companies will not give you the 5-10% discount without an actively monitored system. They usually require proof of monitoring to give the discount.

In my case the policy discount pays for about 70% of the annual monitoring charge. If you are a savvy negotiator, you can get the equipment installed from a major provider for cost + 10%.

I know, I've seen me do it.

WileECoyote

The insurance savings are indeed a great benefit. I also get a similar discount for having security systems on my vehicles. The insurance companies will usually give you the discount if you show that you have a dialer installed and programmed to automatically call for help, so they do not necessarily require monitoring by one of the typical agencies. Their main concern is that help will be alerted if you are asleep or not home, which is true with any type of monitoring including a dialer. The ADT systems use the same kind of dialer, they just program it to call them instead of your neighbors, relatives, or police/fire.

Also good point about negotiations. This is another reason why people should shop for equipment and prices on their own. Then they will have a baseline for comparison to know when they are being overcharged.