Burnning gasket the sequal

Grandpas Grub

OK... [p]I tried a novice mini TNW test. I found some of my new felt gasket with adhesive.[p]Using MAPP it took 1.5 seconds to melt everyting in site. I couldn't get a hold of the IR thermo quick enough to get a reading.[p]The result was burnt through the felt - adhesive evaporated. The gasket at MAPP heat turned into a hard black 'glob' (the scientific term).[p]The 'glob' looked like someone burning the end of a nylon rope. The burn charastic was not at all the same.[p]The heat punched holes through the gasket material causing the physical change to the felt - from a cloth type feel to a hard black 'glob'. [p]If I can get everyting together I will put some pictures up here in a little while.[p]Result was complete burn out. It makes me wonder if the ceramic is protecting the felt somewhat.[p]It was pretty difficult to get two pieces of gasket to fuse together.[p]It would seem it is not the adhesive failure, it is the failure of the gasket material at intense temps. [p]The folks that went with the Rutland changeout, probably the smart move.[p]I think I will leave the testing to TNW. My wife said I really burnt her fingers while she was holding the 4" piece of gasket in her bare hand. I had to keep telling her not to drop the gasket material.[p]Kent

stike

Grandpas Grub,
MAAP flame is around 2000 degrees, whereas the felt melts at 1100. not surprised it melted![p]there are many instances where the adhesive is what's failing, not the gasket. but when it does melt together, i think the whiz is lately postulating (please correct me of i'm wrong) that the brief intense heat of a carbon monoxide flashover (different than a flashback) might be enough to melt the surface of two close gaskets. the entire gasket needn't burn thru, could be just the two surfaces melting together. [p]i still think that when the lid is opened and the gasket peels away, it is a glue failure. sometimes those gaskets stick when they peel off, and again, if it peels off, i gotta think it's glue melting.

BlueRidge

stike,
As long as no smoke escapes from between the egg and it's lid do we need to worry about the condition or looks of the gasket. What is the things purpose anyway?[p]Mine looks like garbage...some black and brittle some still grey and soft...but no smoke escapes so I assume a solid seal and no need to adjust or change/replace anything....[p]Jay

stike

BlueRidge,
well.. the gasket does a couple things. helps make a sometimes wavy rim more airtight. it also cushions the lid when you close it.[p]if you can hold temps and snuff the fire without a gasket (or not much of one), and you aren't in the habit of dropping the lid (with the spring hinge, it's less likely than with an older style hinge), then it might not be a big deal to not have one.[p]i think fishlessman has cooked without one on his large for years. only recently (i think) did he put a new gasket on.

Grandpas Grub

stike,[p]I realize that enough heat on anything is going to produce incineration.[p]However, I also took the time to hold the torch quite away from the felt and move into the felt. Thus, low temp to high temp.[p]I didn't spend much time trying to hold the felt, the torch and the thermometer - only two hands available. Wife actually didn't help. She won't hold things I am burning, drilling or soldering.[p]I don't have any temps to report. Other than within seconds the melted felt and resulting hanging glob was at about 130° within a few seconds of the torch going out. [p]Actually it really should be up to corproate (bge) to resolve this.[p]On to the heat...[p]Fire is caused by three things, air, fuel and heat. [p]Carbon monoxide is a gas which is produced by non used fuel (lack of oxygen). Any type of fuel can produce carbon monoxide. Additionally, the fire plume carries carbon monoxide.[p]Carbon Monoxide flashover - nope, I think not.[p]Flashover is where there is a lack of oxygen with some ignition point (glowing embers - lump in our case) and a gas mixture (heavy with carbon monoxide - due to ladk of oxygen) and intense heat (for us thats inside the egg).[p]It is known that flashback occurs at 930°F. Introduction of oxygen to the existing non burining mixture (opening the dome) is the clasic definition of flashback.[p]Burping the egg is a method of introducing oxygen into the egg with the hopes of controled flashback(s).[p]The better solution as several times stated by TNW is to open wide bottom vent and top vent or remove top vent entirely. [p]It would seem the latter method would allow the mixture inside the egg to have oxygen, ignite, probably producing a fire plume out the top vent. Once the mixture inside the egg is actually bruning it would seem there would be no potential of flashover/flashback would not occure when opening the dome. However, the intense heat possibly would still be inside the egg.[p]Therefore, if flashover happens at 930°, what is the temp once flashback occurs - most likely higher. If the dome opens & flashback occures that 930° or higher temp going over the gaskets that fire plume might be melting the felt/adhesvie.[p]It appears we would need to know two factors. The actual falure point of the felt & adhesive and also the temp of the flashback fire plume.[p]Kent

Grandpas Grub

<p />Grandpas Grub,[p]Top image - largest 'glob' is just under 1/2 inch long. Some felt fibers can still be seen in upper left.[p]Middle image is direct Mapp[p]Bottom image is slowly moving into the felt from a distance[p]Horrible smell when burning.[p]Kent

stike

Grandpas Grub,
i understand there is an oxygen flashback associated with the inrush when you open the lid. that flame is cooler than the blue wall of flame you'll see inside a closed egg filled with fresh lump. when opening, that blue flame will flarre out. to the newb, it looks like a flashback due to oxygen, but that flame isn't from oxygen starved air finally flashing over, it's the blue flame finding a way out.[p]carbon monoxide is produced in copious amounts when cookinjg with charcoal. you will see it burning when your fresh lump is left to burn with all vents open. sometimes shoots three feet out the top. [p]i have had the standard run-of-the-mill flashback occur when i open the lid, and an orange ball of hot air catches fir from the inrush of 02. but i have also had the sheet of blue CO flame flare out from a barely cracked lid. it is MUCH hotter than a flashback. i severely burnt my thumb with very little exposure to it, while conversely i have lost maybe armhair and eyebrows from an O2 flashback, but, there is virtually no danger to the skin.[p]a regular flashback isn't going to melt the gasket, but i think the whiz is onto something. the 'other' flash fire from the ball of carbon monoxide gas that gets going in a fresh closed high heat egg... that's the baddy

Unknown

Grandpas Grub,
Thanks to this forum I was able to get my gasket unstuck last night and on closer inspection this AM it appears OK. I was making burgers and thought it would be a good idea to burn off the grill junk by cranking up the heat. It appears that the gasket fused together on the inside edge about 1/16 inch in and I was able to quickly take my spatula and free it loose. The gasket this morning seems fine and is not loose. The gasket material is more dense though and appears "broke-in" to me. All is good. I just have to keep the kids away from it now when opening the lid. I never seen kids love a grill before, they think its the coolest thing. Thanks again everyone!!!
Eggnoramus

Grandpas Grub

Eggnoramus,[p]Glad to hear the news.[p]Good eatin, Kent

Grandpas Grub

stike,[p]There are plenty of references if you will take a minute to do a google search using 'Carbon Monoxide'[p]Carbon Monoxide gas does NOT burn in and of itself. Hence people die from Carbon monoxide poisoning – they don’t burn up and we don’t hear of people burning up from carbon monoxide fires.[p]In the egg we wait for the white smoke to turn to the almost clear blueish smoke. The white smoke and or clear bluish smoke is all carbon monoxide which is one byproduct of our carbon (lump), oxygen and heat interacting. [p]From experience we all know adding air to a smoking fire (in the egg or a camp fire) we ‘fan or blow’ the coals to get the fire to spread. We don’t add carbon monoxide we add oxygen. Some might add more heat but eventually they add oxygen. To cool the egg down we restrict oxygen (shut the fire down somewhat). If one watches the upper vent when we restrict oxygen we will see some smoke begin (carbon monoxide).[p]Introduce oxygen to heated carbon monoxide (smoke) and you will get a flare up (flashover/flashback) one will also hear a bit of an explosion – a ‘poof’ as it were.[p]The yellow flame vs blue flame only changes due to the ratio of oxygen, heat & fuel.[p]Yellow as you say is a cooler flame plume. Blue is a hotter flame plume. Flashover occurs at temps at and above 930° F and the energy produced by the burning/flashback/flashover is a result of heat and or super heat. This is well documented via studies in behalf of the fire departments. A fireman in full protective gear (normal protective gear) only has less than 2 seconds to evacuate in a flashover situation.

To further illustrate the yellow/blue fire plume...[p]In welding with gas/acetylene one turns on the acetylene and lights the gas. A large yellow (relative low heat) flame begins. Fusing two metals cannot be accomplished until that flame is hotter. With the yellow acetylene flame burning oxygen is slowly introduced to the mixture. The yellow flame with huge amounts of black smoke turns to a clean burning blue flame. The highest heat consideration of heat is at the tip of the blue flame. One can somewhat seem the same affect with a propane or map torch. [p]Another good every day example is the common gas fireplace logs. Logs which produce yellow flame must be vented or carbon monoxide poisoning will occur. The newer logs which produce a blue flame burn up to 100% of the natural gas and will produce little or no carbon monoxide. Thus no venting is required and is safe to heat a room without risk of carbon monoxide poisoning. [p]The newer gas logs have a safety feature with the pilot & gas valve that if something restricts the oxygen ration the fuel supply will shut of and not ignite. The safety feature is to eliminate any possibility of carbon monoxide poising. [p]In our ‘egg world’, the super heated blue flame will follow any and all oxygen sources available; bottom vent, top chimney (dome vent) bad seal around the gasket, anywhere oxygen can get to the heated lump.[p]Fire can only be present when there is a proper ration of heat, fuel and oxygen. Carbon monoxide will be produced by the unburned fuel and will have a more or less concentrated depending on the heat, fuel, oxygen ratio.[p]This is all very easily verified in searching google, in fact take a quick look in widipedia search for flashover. Here is the link to the flashover reference in Wikipedia if you have the interest [p]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashover[p]Interesting research and fun discussion… but it is time to get some hands on experience. Off to start up the egg for Sunday dinner.[p]Kent

stike

Grandpas Grub,
have you met celtic wolf? you guys would get along well.[p]

RRP

stike,
THAT was funny!!!!!!!!!!

Grandpas Grub

RRP,[p]Don't know Celtic Wolf, however he has been helpful to me.[p]Sorry I missed the inside joke.[p]Kent