OT: Losing My Regional Sunoco Supplier. Seeking Fuel Additive Advice.

dbCooper

Have 11:1 compression ratio and aggressive cam profile in my '69 Chevy, it won't run the way it's supposed to be driven using 91 octane pump gas.  A local independent gas station owner/operator has carried 110 octane leaded "Standard" Sunoco for years.  Using about a 30% mixture of that with the 91 octane has served me well.  Unfortunately when the current stock of this Sunoco is gone it won't be replenished.  Talked with the owner and he can no longer justify the economics of continuing to carry it.

Back in the late 1990's, before this Sunoco supplier was around, I'd go to the local airport and buy AvGas.  They were happy to pump it into a approved container.  I checked around, that is not going to happen nowadays.

The coming issues I need to address:

- getting octane of 91 pump gas to upper 90's

- a lead substitute for protecting the valve guides and seats

- stabilizing the fuel (Sunoco was promoted as stable for 24 months)

Anyone have experience dealing with the first two items and have product recommendations?   Sta-Bil is what I'll use to handle the third item, input on any better alternatives also welcomed.

JohnInCarolina

I read the first part of the title a little too quickly as “Losing my Religion” and started to hear Michael Stipe signing in the background…

Langner91

Didn't they use hardened valve seats when they built the motor?  If they did, then lead isn't needed for lubrication.  

I am a fan of Amsoil.  It won't get you more than four points on the octane, though.  It gets used in my Dad's flathead that doesn't have hardened valve seats.  But, that's also not a hot-rod like yours.

You probably know all of this, but a good read:

https://blog.amsoil.com/what-is-a-lead-substitute-and-do-i-need-one/

fishlessman

im a fan of amsoil products as well, mostly for mixed gas.  their octane booster protects valves as well

AMSOIL DOMINATOR Octane Boost.

our premium in the east is 93 octane, have you done a search for 93.  mobile/exxon/sunoco/cumberland farms here all have it

BlueRidgeSmokers

I've found the most effective additives are all based on MMT - which has a distinctive odor and leaves a yellow stain if you spill it.

Way back in the good old days of 1984, there was a chemical distributor in my town that formulated their own octane booster in bulk, they described it to me as MMT cut with jet fuel (kerosene). It worked insanely well, I recall using 2oz of the stuff for a tankful of premium in my slightly fussy '68 Ford 302. I went back a year later to get another gallon and of course they were closed. As concentrated as it was, I suspect I'm lucky to be alive after handling it LOL

If you look at the MSDS on octane boosters, you'll sometimes find manganese compound names like "Tricarbonyl (methylcyclopentadienyl) manganese" (Lucas) or "Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl" (STP), and these are the boosters I've found that are effective. 104+ lists a proprietary blend, but the stuff smells and looks like it has MMT in it.

If you look up the MSDS for a booster and it doesn't have MMT, odds are that it is totally ineffective.

Having tested Lucas Octane Booster in my car with aftermarket supercharger, I found it very effective, kept the ECM from retarding timing much under boost. In my case I used a single bottle to 13 gallons of 91 unleaded, but you'd have to experiment to see what stops pinging in your motor. I don't regularly use the stuff because it might reduce the lifetime of my catalytic converter but that shouldn't be an issue in the '69 Chevy.

Good luck!

Eggdicted_Dawgfan

@dbCooper how about a picture your 69? 

hoosier_egger

I keep a 55 drum of ethanol free 110 octane leaded racing fuel from a local supplier. I'm near the racing capital of the world (Indianapolis) so speed shops are not in short supply.

Check here VP Vintage Leaded | VP Racing Fuels, Inc 

Lucas fuel additive can act as a lead substitute/upper cylinder lube, but that doesn't solve your detonation issue.

SGH

Along with VP mention above, Klotz still manufactures racing fuel. It’s pricey, but what fuel isn’t right now. 

https://klotzlube.com/shop/ols/categories/higher-octane-race-gas

SGH

I’m sure it will cost more, but Sunoco still sells it by the drum. I know it’s not as convenient as pulling up to the pump. But better than nothing. 

lkapigian

JohnInCarolina said:

I read the first part of the title a little too quickly as “Losing my Religion” and started to hear Michael Stipe signing in the background…

hoosier_egger

lkapigian said:

JohnInCarolina said:

I read the first part of the title a little too quickly as “Losing my Religion” and started to hear Michael Stipe signing in the background…

Oh no, you've said too much.

nolaegghead

ReLead is a good wear inhibitor for valve seats/guides.  An 8 oz bottle treats 80 gallons. 

Can't help you on the octane, but I would recommend, if you haven't already, in upgrading the ignition system to something modern with an anti-knock sensor. 

SGH

dbCooper said:

Back in the late 1990's, before this Sunoco supplier was around, I'd go to the local airport and buy AvGas.  They were happy to pump it into a approved container.  I checked around, that is not going to happen nowadays.

I haven’t tried buying Avgas in several years. But it use to be no problem as long as you said it was not for highway use. What has changed?

dbCooper

Thanks everyone for the comments and ideas, all are very helpful.  I've found out that a Harley Davidson dealership in Lincoln sells unleaded 100 octane, from a pump.  Next spring I'll try out mixing that with the 91 and the Amsoil Dominator product.

@Langner91 When I bought the car was not smart enough to ask the original owner if he had installed hardened seats.  Years later figured should find out, but by then he was dead.  So I act as if they are not.  Thanks to you and @fishlessman for the Amsoil info.  Also, no 93 around here at the pumps, max is 91.

@Eggdicted_Dawgfan Couple months back I posted some pics in the Car Lovers thread.  Taken a 2-3 years ago when changed insurance... https://eggheadforum.com/discussion/comment/2610524#Comment_2610524

@SGH Two AvGas vendors told me doing so put them at risk of losing their FAA license.  None of the "Grass Runway" places were tried.

@nolaegghead Incorporating a anti-knock system would be the smart move.  Irrationally I've always tried to keep that car stock/original, so not likely to do that.  *Rational thought... those decrease power when active so better to treat the root cause. 

SGH

dbCooper said:

@SGH Two AvGas vendors told me doing so put them at risk of losing their FAA license.  None of the "Grass Runway" places were tried.

I be darn. I had no idea. Avgas was always available to the public for off-road use. My guess is some of that stupid climate/green crap messed that up like it has everything else. 

On a separate note, I will be going through Mobile tomorrow. I will pull into the Mobile airport and see what they say about Avgas. It’s got me curious. 

nolaegghead

Avgas has lead in it that's why there are laws about burning it in cars.   If you test the dirt next to a highway that's been around since the leaded gas days you'll find very high levels of lead that can cause developmental issues in children.  Our history there probably explains the wide-spread adult population with low cognitive abilities.

SGH

@dbCooper
I took a shot in the dark and just called a small airport near me and inquired about Avgas. They told me some airports now require a “tail number” before they will sell you Avgas. Some airports do not require this. So it’s luck of the draw. 

dbCooper

@SGH

That is some good info to know.  I can easily get a tail number, wonder if I have to attest to it being mine?  Really would like to buy AvGas and skip messing with additives.

If you make the time to stop in Mobile please let me know your results.

SGH

dbCooper said:

@SGH

That is some good info to know.  I can easily get a tail number, wonder if I have to attest to it being mine?  Really would like to buy AvGas and skip messing with additives.

If you make the time to stop in Mobile please let me know your results.

I called a very very small airport in Moss Point, MS. It handles only very small planes. It sounded like you could buy it there no problem. But I will stop by Mobile tomorrow. It’s a major airport but there is a Coast Guard plane and heliport landing on the same property. That is where we use to buy Avgas. Will let you know what they say. 

littlerascal56

I built a 383 for my ‘70 Dodge Challenger SE with 10.5 pistons, and a Holley double pumper on an Edelbrock, Hooker headers, etc. I bought AvGas from a small airport that sold to “crop dusters” and small aircraft.  Made that Challenger run great, even at 6 mpg!  Was a fun car, but a cop magnet.  Sold it, and it was totaled a week later, when the new owner hit a power pole!

Ozzie_Isaac

I do not drink tea from China. China uses leaded gasoline.  Chinese tea is very high in lead due to exhaust contaminating soils.  If you must use Chinese tea, definitely do not brew it with Detroit water.

There are even stories of small tea producers using the exhaust from cars to speed up the tea drying process.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7744859_Scale_and_causes_of_lead_contamination_in_Chinese_tea

dbCooper

A follow-up...

Yesterday I got 5 gal. of 100LL (100 octane Low Lead) AvGas for $6./gal.  Thanks to the input from @SGH I continued the quest and found success.

There is a 3rd generation family run business headquartered at the Lincoln Airport called Duncan Aviation.  https://www.duncanaviation.aero  Those in the Gulfstream crowd know them well, couple well-heeled forum members likely have done business with them.  Given their clientele and my circumstances I had dismissed them out of hand.  That was a mistake.

I gave them a call, got directed to the proper person straight away and was told no problem, come on out.  Showed up with my jug, got buzzed in to a reception area and was offered coffee (k-cups, not cheap instant stuff) and candy while waiting for the fueler guy.  He shows up in his golf cart, takes me out to his fuel truck on the apron, fills my jug, then delivers me to my car and welcomes me back anytime.  Just a great experience. 

A side note from talking with the fuel guy, there are efforts under way at the federal level to completely remove lead from AvGas.  The little guy hobbyist pilots with older planes will take a financial hit when that comes to pass.  Expensive rebuild or repowering is in their future.

nolaegghead

If something like Hapco lead substitute works in their engines, it will cost them an additional $0.30/gal

nolaegghead

anyway, glad you found a source for the old car

fishlessman

with todays gas prices that doesnt look to be a bad price

Langner91

dbCooper said:

A follow-up...

Yesterday I got 5 gal. of 100LL (100 octane Low Lead) AvGas for $6./gal.  Thanks to the input from @SGH I continued the quest and found success.

My Harley would love that stuff.  Dang!  Glad you found it!

BTW, have you posted a picture of your car?

dbCooper

Langner91 said:

dbCooper said:

A follow-up...

Yesterday I got 5 gal. of 100LL (100 octane Low Lead) AvGas for $6./gal.  Thanks to the input from @SGH I continued the quest and found success.

My Harley would love that stuff.  Dang!  Glad you found it!

BTW, have you posted a picture of your car?

@Langner91 Someone else asked that earlier in the thread, posted this...

Couple months back I posted some pics in the Car Lovers thread.  Taken a 2-3 years ago when changed insurance... https://eggheadforum.com/discussion/comment/2610524#Comment_2610524

In my search I discovered a nearby Harley dealer pumps 100 octane unleaded at $10./gal.  Maybe check if your local dealer does the same.

SGH

@dbCooper
Im glad to see that you located it in your neck of the woods. And I apologize for the late reply but you can still buy it from Mobile airport. 

stlcharcoal

Little late getting in this one, but getting AvGas isn't a problem if you just tell them it's for a homebuilt.  Don't mention anything about cars and you don't have to have a N-number if the thing isn't complete.  So just say "homebuilt" or "experimental", and they shouldn't give you any trouble.

And yes, the 100LL situation is getting expensive and ugly.  Luckily there's some engine manufacturers working on diesels that run on JetA and some unleaded aviation fuels being developed out there.  But for the last 20 yrs, the FAA has been and still is the hold up in certification.

Autogas STC's exist for Premium in non-turbo charged engines, but it's hard to find without ethanol and either way you can run into detonation running straight autogas.  Mixing 91-93 Premium with 100LL 50/50 was a good way to save some money and cut down on lead fouling.  But you don't want to do that if the aircraft wasn't going to burn through the whole tank within a month.  AvGas is very stable compared to autogas.

Langner91

dbCooper said:

Langner91 said:

dbCooper said:

A follow-up...

Yesterday I got 5 gal. of 100LL (100 octane Low Lead) AvGas for $6./gal.  Thanks to the input from @SGH I continued the quest and found success.

My Harley would love that stuff.  Dang!  Glad you found it!

BTW, have you posted a picture of your car?

@Langner91 Someone else asked that earlier in the thread, posted this...

Couple months back I posted some pics in the Car Lovers thread.  Taken a 2-3 years ago when changed insurance... https://eggheadforum.com/discussion/comment/2610524#Comment_2610524

In my search I discovered a nearby Harley dealer pumps 100 octane unleaded at $10./gal.  Maybe check if your local dealer does the same.

I need to quit drinking, or maybe drink more.  I remember the '69 'Vette.  When you posted "'69 Chevy", I assumed it was a different car.  I was picturing a Chevelle or an Impala.

Nice Car!

CtTOPGUN

VP makes a race fuel concentrate that works real well. I have a supercharged nitrous assisted Ford Lightning street/strip truck running big boost and add a can to premium gas when I am going to play a bit. I can run the tune normally used for 103 VP unleaded race fuel with that product in tank. Modern motor so lead not needed but do run VP C16 on max effort race tune up.