OT: Wheat Belly

NPHuskerFL

How dare you bring an educational, sightful and even somewhat logical topic to this forum!  Are you crazy
OT I began 2 starters. One white and one token wheat. I've use both equally. From a consumer standpoint I like each for different reasons. However, I do notice less of a bloated feel with the wheat even when using other flours for the base. This forum is becoming too damn educational

NPHuskerFL

On this same sort of subject. A sourdough with an extended cold bulk autolyse and followed by cold 72 hr fermentation is much easier for the body to absorb. And many people that are gluten intolerant can consume it because natural occurring bacteria has broken down the gluten in the long process. 

Zippylip

NPHuskerFL said:

On this same sort of subject. A sourdough with an extended cold bulk autolyse and followed by cold 72 hr fermentation is much easier for the body to absorb. And many people that are gluten intolerant can consume it because natural occurring bacteria has broken down the gluten in the long process. 

I've read that, interesting.  Along those lines sprouted whole wheat accomplishes those same ends without the wait of the traditional fermentation process.  I bought a bag to experiment with, first loaf was far and away superior to any whole wheat I'd ever used before, airier, lighter texture...  As far as w/n it's easier to digest (which is touted) I couldn't comment personally, have no digestion issues in that regard to compare it to

Legume

quick question bread nerds, if the gluten is broken down, is the texture of the dough different - as pizza dough is it more likely to tear vs stretching?  we have some gluten-intolerance in my house, so we've been messing with various gluten free mixes and recipes for bread and the feel and structure is so very different, as pizza dough, it's very hard to work with.  I can buy gluten free pizza dough from the local pizza place, but even then, they only sell already shaped and half-baked leading me to believe it's also a challenge for them

nolaegghead

The gluten contributes greatly to the structure of what you know as bread.  Helps hold in the gas to make large voids, is chewy, etc.  Without it it's more like cake.  Or very dense.

I've learned a few hard lessons on over fermenting dough.  Too much gluten isn't a good thing either depending on what you're doing.

SkySaw

I certainly understand the viewpoint that food and nutrition research has produced no useful information, but that's not true. The problem is that real research is (mis)interpreted or misrepresented by people or groups who have their own beliefs, and Wheat Belly is a perfect example. Another problem with nutrition research is that it too often looks at some irrelevant outcome to prove a point, pretending that there is a scientific rational for that point. For example, I once read a 'fact' that eggs contain 12% of the daily requirement for vitamin K, and since vitamin k is essential for heart health, eggs are heart healthy. By using an irrelevant outcome as evidence to support a misleading or counter-factual claim, groups or individuals can distort knowledge.

Wheat Belly has no basis in fact or science. The problem with wheat is that we tend not to eat whole wheat. By removing the part of the wheat that is harder to convert to sugar and that is good for our digestive tract, we maximize the caloric value of wheat while minimizing its nutritional value. If you are concerned about wheat in your diet, try changing to whole wheat before cutting it out altogether.

Of course, none of this applies to the very small portion of the population that suffers from real disease from wheat.

NPHuskerFL

@legume the dough is actually more elastic 

NPHuskerFL

@nolaegghead over fementation of sourdough or commercial yeast fed? I've cold fermented as long as 72 hrs with no issue but, on most bread of the sourdough nature I'm around 24-48 hrs. 

Legume

ok, still confused. 

from @NPHuskerFL and @Zippylip I get that longer fermentation leads to gluten getting digested - as evidenced by digestibility
 
from @nolaegghead I get that without gluten, less structure, more cake-like, also longer fermentation not always good, too much gluten not good

and from @NPHuskerFL the dough is actually more elastic

so...this is inconsistent to me

if gluten is digested in longer fermentation, then why more more elastic?  if longer fermentation is not always good, too much gluten is not good, then is the digestion of gluten not real?

Zippylip

SkySaw said:

Wheat Belly has no basis in fact or science. The problem with wheat is that we tend not to eat whole wheat. By removing the part of the wheat that is harder to convert to sugar and that is good for our digestive tract, we maximize the caloric value of wheat while minimizing its nutritional value. If you are concerned about wheat in your diet, try changing to whole wheat before cutting it out altogether.

yup, another vote for whole foods; the fact that we got away from that concept is troubling.  What's more troubling to me is how quickly people are ready to abandon a staple to chase a plan such as this.  I've seen & tasted some of the alternatives & they're horrid; why someone without a discernible adverse reaction to wheat would voluntarily go that route makes no sense yet they're doing it every day. 

Zippylip

Legume said:

ok, still confused. 

from @NPHuskerFL and @Zippylip I get that longer fermentation leads to gluten getting digested - as evidenced by digestibility
 
from @nolaegghead I get that without gluten, less structure, more cake-like, also longer fermentation not always good, too much gluten not good

and from @NPHuskerFL the dough is actually more elastic

so...this is inconsistent to me

if gluten is digested in longer fermentation, then why more more elastic?  if longer fermentation is not always good, too much gluten is not good, then is the digestion of gluten not real?

I can't answer all of that particularly as related to fermentation.  My understanding is more in the sprouted grain department.  When the grain sprouts it begins digesting the starchy center which contains at least in part the gluten.  This leads sprouted grain to be more easily digested by someone with an intolerance to wheat.  Now, later on when the sprouting is arrested & the grains re-dried, ground & used as 'flour', it does have a lower gluten content as a result.  I believe commercial bakers (like Ezekial) add back gluten to counter this.  When I tried baking with it sans added gluten it was still good, however not on a level with more typical AP or bread flour, but better than whole wheat.  I can't explain why*.  My next loaf will contain added gluten as I'm curious how much better i can make it.  My end goal is to bake a loaf of whole wheat bread that's comparable to white bread.

*Edit: I think the sprouting process digests more than the starch/gluten, other components that may cause issues for the intolerant. 

*further edit/disclaimer: this may have gone off the rail, at least for my part I'm not trying to avoid gluten by any stretch, pun intended; I'm trying to make the best tasting loaf of gluten packed bread that still has its whole food components, in my case using whole wheat flour that's made from sprouted grains as this provides the benefits of fermentation without the time/ass-ache factor of souring dough...

NPHuskerFL

@Legume I'm a self taught sort. In my experience with sourdough which is minimal in comparison to friends I communicate with. They've taught me just by our short conversations. The crumb or air pockets come from both the gasses during fermentation and baking but, also from the technique of slap folding before forming. As far as the elasticity aspect I again can only speak from experience and not on a scientific level (not my bag...yet). I prefer a high hydration because of the end crumb. It is more difficult to work with high hydration (85%-104%) but, the crumb is the payback. I had MANY failed loaves and pizzas before I began to understand what I was doing and why I needed to do it. Call it trial & error. And failing after investing 4 days into something sucks but, I learned from it. My bread doesn't have a cake texture and I never add gluten (not to say you shouldn't or should for that matter). Hell I've never even read Flour Water Salt. My understanding is that it's a great book. 

GrateEggspectations

Acn said:

nolaegghead said:

Wheat belly is to blue grass as Lead belly is to blues?

Nirvana's cover of Where Did You Sleep Last Night is one of the great cover songs of all time.
https://youtu.be/mcXYz0gtJeM

Little-known artist doing an astounding version (and before Nirvana at that!)......

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zl9X74O4F5c

And to be clear, I'm not knocking the Nirvana version at all - it's great as well.

nolaegghead

NPHuskerFL said:

@nolaegghead over fementation of sourdough or commercial yeast fed? I've cold fermented as long as 72 hrs with no issue but, on most bread of the sourdough nature I'm around 24-48 hrs. 

From my limited understanding of the process, a wet fermentation is a slow motion kneading of the dough which aligns the gluten.  This happens very quickly at room temps, very slowly in the refrigerator.  Just like if you over knead dough, you lose the grain of the gluten.  I'm sure there are other things happening like enzymes breaking down carbs, etc.

jtcBoynton

Legume said:

ok, still confused. 

from @NPHuskerFL and @Zippylip I get that longer fermentation leads to gluten getting digested - as evidenced by digestibility
 
from @nolaegghead I get that without gluten, less structure, more cake-like, also longer fermentation not always good, too much gluten not good

and from @NPHuskerFL the dough is actually more elastic

so...this is inconsistent to me

if gluten is digested in longer fermentation, then why more more elastic?  if longer fermentation is not always good, too much gluten is not good, then is the digestion of gluten not real?

Gluten is made up primarily of two different proteins, which fight against each other.  One is what allows the dough to be stretched really thin without tearing.  The other is what pulls it back and helps the dough keep its shape.  Change the ratio of the two or the chemical bonds between the two and the dough will act differently.  When water is added to flour, enzymes start to impact the gluten proteins and change how they act (I believe they impact the chemical bonds of the two proteins, but am not sure).  

Gluten development is fairly complex and is impacted by the following:
Variety of wheat
Amount of water
Water hardness
Water pH
Leavening
Enzymes
Salt
Other additives - fat, oil, emulsifiers, and sugars

All of these are easily changed by the baker, so there are lots of variations that result in differences in the end product.  Also means that you can get to the same end product using different routes.  Result is you will see many many variations/recommendations from different bakers.  Confusion reigns.

nolaegghead

Zippylip said:

I can't answer all of that particularly as related to fermentation.  My understanding is more in the sprouted grain department.  When the grain sprouts it begins digesting the starchy center which contains at least in part the gluten.  This leads sprouted grain to be more easily digested by someone with an intolerance to wheat.  Now, later on when the sprouting is arrested & the grains re-dried, ground & used as 'flour', it does have a lower gluten content as a result.  I believe commercial bakers (like Ezekial) add back gluten to counter this.  When I tried baking with it sans added gluten it was still good, however not on a level with more typical AP or bread flour, but better than whole wheat.  I can't explain why*.  My next loaf will contain added gluten as I'm curious how much better i can make it.  My end goal is to bake a loaf of whole wheat bread that's comparable to white bread.

*Edit: I think the sprouting process digests more than the starch/gluten, other components that may cause issues for the intolerant. 

*further edit/disclaimer: this may have gone off the rail, at least for my part I'm not trying to avoid gluten by any stretch, pun intended; I'm trying to make the best tasting loaf of gluten packed bread that still has its whole food components, in my case using whole wheat flour that's made from sprouted grains as this provides the benefits of fermentation without the time/ass-ache factor of souring dough...

Generally you can have grains in several states.  

1. raw, dried, (often ground)  - your basic flour.
2. roasted (often ground) - for flavor.  This is seeped for beer making.
3. malts - raw, dried.  The grain is germinated with water which releases various enzymes that break carbohydrates into sugars.  Beer is made from malts, mostly.
4. malts - roasted, dried.  Flavor.  But some sugar for fermentation

Malting isn't that important for bread making because you don't need much sugar to feed the yeast.

Fermentation and gluten don't really have anything to do with each other than the mechanical kneading you get with wet dough fermentation. 

Gluten is a grass seed protein mix - "glue" - that helps holds starches together.  It gives you the chew when it crossbonds from cooking.  Working the flour in a dry dough through kneading or letting it percolate with fermentation bubbles in a wet dough - same result - the gluten breaks away from it's starch and teams up with his/her buddies and new strands form. 

Gluten proteins are unimportant (nutritionally) except for their structural properties in baked goods.

Just regurgitating stuff I make up.  I say it enough that I actually believe some of it, sometimes.

Zippylip

nolaegghead said:

3. malts - raw, dried.  The grain is germinated with water which releases various enzymes that break carbohydrates into sugars.  Beer is made from malts, mostly.
4. malts - roasted, dried.  Flavor.  But some sugar for fermentation

Malting isn't that important for bread making because you don't need much sugar to feed the yeast.

sounds like malting and sprouting are one in the same.  I recently picked up Bread Revolution (Reinhart) which his whole grain book.  The intro recounts a conversation between him & Joe Lindley, an organic mill operator, discussing this 'new' (then 2009) flour he wanted Reinhart to work with he calls Super Sprout (coincidentally @Darby_Crenshaw 's nickname as a small child in the slums of Southie).  From Lindley's website: "the sprouting of grains causes an increase in enzyme activity, an increase in total proteins, changes in amino acid composition, measurable increases in soluble fiber, a decrease in starch, and slightly higher amounts of some minerals and vitamins including Beta Carotene, Folic Acid, Iron, Omega 6 fatty acids, Omega 3 fatty acids, B and D Vitamins, Niacin, Calcium, and Vitamin E."  Anyway Reinhart goes on to play with it noting that although he thought the flour would under-perfom given the damage done to the gluten through the sprouting process, turns out it didn't & the end product was the 'best whole wheat bread he'd ever had, no sugar, honey, oil per-ferment or extended fermentation, just the flour water yeast & salt'.  By the way i think that's the part I read on Amazon's read-me page which sold me on the book.  So far so good on the promise, only one loaf in & I agree it kicks plain whole wheat flour's ass.

Darby_Crenshaw

Zippylip said:

 only one loaf in & I agree it kicks plain whole wheat flour's ass.

doooon't caaaaaare

Zippylip

ok SS

SemolinaPilchard

nolaegghead said:

Wheat belly is to blue grass as Lead belly is to blues?

For any of you who were children of the 60's, you may like this cover/redo by Jaime Brockett of Leadbelly's song about the boxer Jack Johnson and theTitanic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XFYMjkFYPg

Little Steven

GrateEggspectations said:

Acn said:

nolaegghead said:

Wheat belly is to blue grass as Lead belly is to blues?

Nirvana's cover of Where Did You Sleep Last Night is one of the great cover songs of all time.
https://youtu.be/mcXYz0gtJeM

Little-known artist doing an astounding version (and before Nirvana at that!)......

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zl9X74O4F5c

And to be clear, I'm not knocking the Nirvana version at all - it's great as well.

Long John is an expat Brit who lived in Toronto and became a Canadian citizen.
Iko Iko and Don't try to lay no Boogie Woogie on the King of Rock and Roll were awesome. Very unappreciated artist.

smokeybreeze

GMO food has been with us for as long as humans have been grafting edible plants and cross-breeding creatures that we eat, not to mention just eating anything that cross-pollinates. All of these things mix up the DNA.

Back to the topic of wheat... I make all my own bread and have done so for nearly 40 years - recipe: water, flour, salt, yeast, flax, wheat germ, and honey.

I can tell when I've eaten fresh store-bought bread - I feel lethargic and blah within an hour or two. Never feel that way from homemade breads.

Zippylip

smokeybreeze said:

I can tell when I've eaten fresh store-bought bread - I feel lethargic and blah within an hour or two. Never feel that way from homemade breads.

I fortunately don't suffer from any of those side effects of eating store bought bread, but do recognize there's crap in there that I'd rather not eat whether I feel it or not... 

I tried the sprouted wheat in pancakes this past weekend, they turned out great; I've bought my last box of bisquick.

Was walking through the aisles of whole foods today & noticed that King Arthur now produces a sprouted wheat flour so it appears to be catching on; maybe give it a try - if you do keep in mind you need to greatly increase the quantity of water as compared to regular flour.

Little Steven

Zippylip said:

SkySaw said:

Wheat Belly has no basis in fact or science. The problem with wheat is that we tend not to eat whole wheat. By removing the part of the wheat that is harder to convert to sugar and that is good for our digestive tract, we maximize the caloric value of wheat while minimizing its nutritional value. If you are concerned about wheat in your diet, try changing to whole wheat before cutting it out altogether.

yup, another vote for whole foods; the fact that we got away from that concept is troubling.  What's more troubling to me is how quickly people are ready to abandon a staple to chase a plan such as this.  I've seen & tasted some of the alternatives & they're horrid; why someone without a discernible adverse reaction to wheat would voluntarily go that route makes no sense yet they're doing it every day. 

How I wish I had never suggested Netflix to you.