Pumpernickel help please...

Carolina Q

I have tried a couple of recipes for Pumpernickel, but it comes out looking more like whole wheat than pumpernickel.  It tastes good, but it's not quite right and it certainly doesn't LOOK right. Yesterday, I found a recipe with a pic that looked exactly like what I want...


But this afternoon, when I followed that recipe EXACTLY, it was delicious bread, but it wasn't BLACK - the color I associate with pumpernickel. And the taste wasn't quite right. Quite good, but not "right". Here's my loaf...





Does anyone have a recipe for black pumpernickel? This one has coffee, cocoa and molasses plus bread, rye and whole wheat flours. But it's not BLACK.

Any help will be appreciated! Thanks!

scottc454

The stuff at the stores has caramel coloring added.

Carolina Q

Hmm, thanks, but it seems like the flavor part was a bit off too. If it's just color, it's not that big a deal, but mine seemed to be missing a flavor component too. It was quite good, just not quite right. Not sure what it was missing. Was hoping someone could help with a killer pumpernickel recipe. Black would be a bonus.

Theophan

Years ago when I lived in the Philly area, I used to get a black Russian bread at the Reading Terminal Market that I think actually came from a NYC bakery, and that stuff was the color of espresso, had a glossy, glossy crust, was as delicious as it was gorgeous.  Loved that stuff!  Never have had a bread like it.  Looked at the Reading Terminal Market last time I visited Philly, and no one had it.

I, too, have wondered what they use to make it so black.  Many of them do call for coffee, but as someone else said, I bet caramel color is in there, too.  Dunno -- I feel like these breads have been made for centuries, and they didn't have caramel color back then. 

northGAcock

I have no idea but interested in this thread.

dldawes1

Bread looks really good. I'd eat a couple slices with a big ole sammich stuffed in between !!

fishlessman

use pumpernickel flour i would throw some rye seeds in too

fishlessman

just did some googling, use coarse pumpernickel flour and one piece of advice i saw said to slow cook it with steam up to 2 hours, didnt give a specific temp but the slow cook allows the sugars in the coarse flour to fully darken. breads really went down hill in the last couple of decades, my favorite portuguese sweet bread is no longer a sweet bread, new england bulkies are horrible now, etc  petridge farms pumpernickel is saw dust compared to the old days, did get a good pumpernickel at the hannafords bakery last week but it was only good (great for todays standards)

Carolina Q

fishlessman said:

use pumpernickel flour i would throw some rye seeds in too

I've never even seen pumpernickel flour. I had a hard enough time finding rye flour!!

buzd504

https://www.amazon.com/King-Arthur-Flour-Pumpernickel/dp/B01BFN4X76

fishlessman

Carolina Q said:

fishlessman said:

use pumpernickel flour i would throw some rye seeds in too

I've never even seen pumpernickel flour. I had a hard enough time finding rye flour!!

have bought it before, was either market basket or shaws, probably market basket cause shaws is too pricey

jtcBoynton

@Carolina Q  You said:"Does anyone have a recipe for black pumpernickel? This one has coffee, cocoa and molasses plus bread, rye and whole wheat flours. But it's not BLACK."  

Rye flour comes in differing types (I most often see light rye, medium rye, and pumpernickel rye) - make sure you are using pumpernickel rye flour (whole wheat rye). Recipe should not have too much white flour mixed in (I prefer to use more pumpernickel flour and add gluten to get the rise).  I have seen recipes with only pumpernickel and buckwheat flours.  Color from coffee, espresso powder, black molasses, cocoa, carob, prune juice, and/or caramel color.  I am guessing a little squid ink would work as well!

For flavor, using a rye sourdough starter may help.  There are various rye "enhancer" products that can be added if you don't want to go the starter route.

As a side note - traditional "black" breads were not actually black.  The really black breads we see today are a product of the various coloring agents we like to add.

Carolina Q

fishlessman said:

Carolina Q said:

fishlessman said:

use pumpernickel flour i would throw some rye seeds in too

I've never even seen pumpernickel flour. I had a hard enough time finding rye flour!!

have bought it before, was either market basket or shaws, probably market basket cause shaws is too pricey

Shaw's got bought out by Stop & Shop here. Never heard of Market Basket. 

buzd504 said:

https://www.amazon.com/King-Arthur-Flour-Pumpernickel/dp/B01BFN4X76

Thanks, but nearly $30 for 3 lbs of flour?! I don't think so.

Carolina Q

jtcBoynton said:

@Carolina Q  You said:"Does anyone have a recipe for black pumpernickel? This one has coffee, cocoa and molasses plus bread, rye and whole wheat flours. But it's not BLACK."  

Rye flour comes in differing types (I most often see light rye, medium rye, and pumpernickel rye) - make sure you are using pumpernickel rye flour (whole wheat rye). Recipe should not have too much white flour mixed in (I prefer to use more pumpernickel flour and add gluten to get the rise).  I have seen recipes with only pumpernickel and buckwheat flours.  Color from coffee, espresso powder, black molasses, cocoa, carob, prune juice, and/or caramel color.  I am guessing a little squid ink would work as well!

For flavor, using a rye sourdough starter may help.  There are various rye "enhancer" products that can be added if you don't want to go the starter route.

As a side note - traditional "black" breads were not actually black.  The really black breads we see today are a product of the various coloring agents we like to add.

Thanks. I am a novice at bread baking and not good at winging it. I guess I have some learning to do. 

jtcBoynton

Finding rye flour locally down here is tough (may be one of the reasons I don't make rye bread a lot).  Pumpernickel flour goes by various names: Pumpernickel flour = whole grain rye flour = dark rye flour.

King Arthur has good stuff, but it is pricey.  

Bob's Red Mill has a "Organic Dark Rye Flour " and "Organic Pumpernickel Dark Rye Meal".  You might be able to find a local retailer that handles Bob's Red Mill products.  

Look for Hodgson Mill products. They also have Whole Grain Rye Flour.

nolabrew

Pumpernickel means "Satan's farts" in German. 

Nickel = The devil
Pumper = fart

Carolina Q

jtcBoynton said:

Finding rye flour locally down here is tough (may be one of the reasons I don't make rye bread a lot).  Pumpernickel flour goes by various names: Pumpernickel flour = whole grain rye flour = dark rye flour.

King Arthur has good stuff, but it is pricey.  

Bob's Red Mill has a "Organic Dark Rye Flour " and "Organic Pumpernickel Dark Rye Meal".  You might be able to find a local retailer that handles Bob's Red Mill products.  

Look for Hodgson Mill products. They also have Whole Grain Rye Flour.

I used Hodgson Mill Whole Grain Rye. Went to at least 5 stores and found just one that had any. I'll try to find Bob's. I know I've seen their products.

The recipe I used called for 2 1/2 cups "flour" (I used Bread), 1 cup rye and 1/2 cup whole wheat. Maybe I should increase rye and decrease bread?

Carolina Q

fishlessman said:

just did some googling, use coarse pumpernickel flour and one piece of advice i saw said to slow cook it with steam up to 2 hours, didnt give a specific temp but the slow cook allows the sugars in the coarse flour to fully darken. breads really went down hill in the last couple of decades, my favorite portuguese sweet bread is no longer a sweet bread, new england bulkies are horrible now, etc  petridge farms pumpernickel is saw dust compared to the old days, did get a good pumpernickel at the hannafords bakery last week but it was only good (great for todays standards)

Apparently, there's a considerable difference between traditional, Westphalian pumpernickel and the Americanized version (a shock, I know). The Germans do the slow baked version. We add caramel color. Why am I not surprised? I read somewhere that, if you like the American style, you may not care for the real thing. Dunno.

I used to buy Freihofer's Pumpernickel (also what they used in the cafeteria at work). I haven't bought any lately so I don't know if it has changed.

jtcBoynton

Carolina Q said:

jtcBoynton said:

Finding rye flour locally down here is tough (may be one of the reasons I don't make rye bread a lot).  Pumpernickel flour goes by various names: Pumpernickel flour = whole grain rye flour = dark rye flour.

King Arthur has good stuff, but it is pricey.  

Bob's Red Mill has a "Organic Dark Rye Flour " and "Organic Pumpernickel Dark Rye Meal".  You might be able to find a local retailer that handles Bob's Red Mill products.  

Look for Hodgson Mill products. They also have Whole Grain Rye Flour.

I used Hodgson Mill Whole Grain Rye. Went to at least 5 stores and found just one that had any. I'll try to find Bob's. I know I've seen their products.

The recipe I used called for 2 1/2 cups "flour" (I used Bread), 1 cup rye and 1/2 cup whole wheat. Maybe I should increase rye and decrease bread?

Flour ratio seems typical for many rye breads.  Some recipes will get the pumpernickel flour up in the 50% area. Pumpernickel flour is low in gluten, so depending on your preference for crumb density, you may want to add gluten to give it more lift if you go with a higher % of pumpernickel flour.  Try adding a couple teaspoons of cocoa for color. A couple of teaspoons of ground anise may be the flavor you are missing (or maybe not - anise has its fans but isn't for everyone).

This discussion has inspired me to make some rye bread so I looked for rye flour in my local Publix market today.  They carry King Arthur, Bob's Red Mill, Hodgson Mill, and Arrowhead Mills products - not the full line of any of the brands but selective items from them all.  They actually had one bag of Arrowhead Mills Rye Flour - it came home with me. I am currently starting a new sourdough starter. I think a rye loaf is on the short list for this week.

gdenby

From what very little I know, there is no coffee, or cocoa, or caramel color in real "black bread," Just rye flour. No wheat. You may need to do an online purchase to get the right stuff.

Check out recipes. I had some really good, but not quite "black" pumpernickel from a Lithuanian bakery in Chi, now closed. Search w. the term Lithuanian or Polish.

NPHuskerFL

Haven't tackled pumpernickel yet. Yet. 

Carolina Q

jtcBoynton said:

Carolina Q said:

jtcBoynton said:

Finding rye flour locally down here is tough (may be one of the reasons I don't make rye bread a lot).  Pumpernickel flour goes by various names: Pumpernickel flour = whole grain rye flour = dark rye flour.

King Arthur has good stuff, but it is pricey.  

Bob's Red Mill has a "Organic Dark Rye Flour " and "Organic Pumpernickel Dark Rye Meal".  You might be able to find a local retailer that handles Bob's Red Mill products.  

Look for Hodgson Mill products. They also have Whole Grain Rye Flour.

I used Hodgson Mill Whole Grain Rye. Went to at least 5 stores and found just one that had any. I'll try to find Bob's. I know I've seen their products.

The recipe I used called for 2 1/2 cups "flour" (I used Bread), 1 cup rye and 1/2 cup whole wheat. Maybe I should increase rye and decrease bread?

Flour ratio seems typical for many rye breads.  Some recipes will get the pumpernickel flour up in the 50% area. Pumpernickel flour is low in gluten, so depending on your preference for crumb density, you may want to add gluten to give it more lift if you go with a higher % of pumpernickel flour.  Try adding a couple teaspoons of cocoa for color. A couple of teaspoons of ground anise may be the flavor you are missing (or maybe not - anise has its fans but isn't for everyone).

This discussion has inspired me to make some rye bread so I looked for rye flour in my local Publix market today.  They carry King Arthur, Bob's Red Mill, Hodgson Mill, and Arrowhead Mills products - not the full line of any of the brands but selective items from them all.  They actually had one bag of Arrowhead Mills Rye Flour - it came home with me. I am currently starting a new sourdough starter. I think a rye loaf is on the short list for this week.

Thanks! I appreciate you taking the time to help me! Though I wonder if I am beyond help when it comes to baking. I have always understood that a sourdough starter is something that must be maintained, not just thrown together for a loaf of bread. Since I know I would never do that, I have never bothered to try it.

The recipe I used for this loaf was written for a bread machine and I used my Zojirushi. After the dough cycle was finished, I placed it in a mixing bowl, covered it and let it rise. I baked it in a cloche in my oven, not in the bread machine.

Here's the recipe I used.
1 1/4 cups water
2 1/2 cups flour (Used Bread flour)
1 cup rye flour (I used Hodgson Mill Whole Grain Rye)
1/2 cup whole wheat flour
1 1/2 tablespoons dry milk
3 tablespoons sugar
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
2 tablespoons butter
1/4 cup cornmeal
2 1/2 tablespoons cocoa powder
4 tablespoons molasses
1 teaspoon instant coffee
1 tablespoon caraway seeds
1 tablespoon yeast (slightly heaping) (I used SAF instant)

Not going to add anise. Every Italian baker around here uses anise in their cookies. The cookies look so good! Until you take a bite. As you said though, it has it's fans.

Just got back from yet another store where I found Bob's Red Mill Organic Dark Rye. Still haven't found any pumpernickel flour and I will not spend nearly $10 a pound for what Amazon is selling!

I will get there... or I will settle.

Carolina Q

gdenby said:

From what very little I know, there is no coffee, or cocoa, or caramel color in real "black bread," Just rye flour. No wheat. You may need to do an online purchase to get the right stuff.

Check out recipes. I had some really good, but not quite "black" pumpernickel from a Lithuanian bakery in Chi, now closed. Search w. the term Lithuanian or Polish.

Thanks. I'll check it out.

jtcBoynton

The Bob's Red Mill Organic Dark Rye is the same thing that some call pumpernickel flour.  Pumpernickel is a specific type of dark rye bread made using whole grain rye flour (and rye meal).  For marketing purposes, some people call whole grain rye flour 'pumpernickel flour'.  There are numerous versions of dark rye breads. And while they are not technically pumpernickel, I think many of us throw around the pumpernickel word as a catch-all for dark rye breads.  

The inclusion of corn meal in the recipe is a bit surprising. 

Darby_Crenshaw

I once accidentally clicked on a post that said "here's a picture of my loaf"

i promised myself i would never make make that mistake again

ooops

mrs_story

If you order direct from King Arthur Flour, the organic pumpernickel flour is $10.95 for 3 lbs. 

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/organic-pumpernickel-flour-3-lb

Shipping is $6 & up.  Still way less than ordering from Amazon.  I like to order the KAF catalogs -- so many interesting things!