Tankless Water Heaters "OT"

Mattman3969

Its time to replace my water heater and I'm pretty convinced I want to go tankless.  I'm thinking the Navien NPE - 240A.  Any of you using tankless?  If so what brand and how do you like it?   

matoch

I have a rinnai unit and I've been pretty happy with it. You just have to get used to waiting longer for hot water. Since heat isn't constantly applied the water in the pipes cool off when not in use. It's not bad but it's a noticable delay.

Mattman3969

Thanks for the input.  The one I'm thinking about has a recirc pump that is on a timer that will recirculate the hot water in the lines during the times it is set to.  Luckily I already have a recirc pump and the plumbing loop to accommodate. 

Eggcelsior

@nolaegghead has one and put it in himself, I believe.

Tjcoley

How about a hybrid tank/tankless unit?  Just started looking into them and they look interesting.  Will be replacing soon.

DoubleEgger

I looked at them but ended up buying a regular unit. It's sitting in the garage until I get around to replacing it in the next few weeks.  If you've got gas, check the sizing on your gas line and your exhaust piping. Tankless units generally run at higher BTUs and thus requires larger piping. If electric, check the size of your feeder, you might require a larger feeder. These things can add big money to the cost of a changeout. 

Mattman3969

I've got a 1" gas line so I think that is cool.  As to the venting, regardless of what I put in I need all new vent pipes. 

bgebrent

I'd go tankless too Matt.  Just makes sense if you plan to stay put for a while.

victor1

I installed a Rinnai a few fears ago at our cabin, replacing a slightly aging electric heater.  Installation was easy and operation has been flawless.  There is a bit of a delay as mentioned but nothing you can't get used to.  Mine is a propane model.  I would choose the same unit again and will probably replace our home heater with a Rinnai when the time comes.  Am not sure, but there may also be a fairly decent tax credit for an on demand heater.  FWIW, I also installed a water softner as we have well water at our cabin.  If you can DIY, you'll save a bundle.

pinballLooking

I installed a T-H3-DV-N about two years ago it is very similar to the Navien.

http://www.takagi.com/products/tankless-water-heaters/t-h3-dv-n

http://www.build.com/takagi-th3dv/s822340?uid=2121706

It is vented with PVC just like the Navien.

I have a recirc pump and a loop that is activated when you turn on a light switch close to the water usage.

It has performed very well we are happy with it. We have had no issues at all.

BYS1981

I decided not to go tankless a year ago and I'd make the same choice today if I had too. I have 3 females in my house, but also be mindful without electricity you can't use most tankless units. 

nolaegghead

matoch said:

I have a rinnai unit and I've been pretty happy with it. You just have to get used to waiting longer for hot water. Since heat isn't constantly applied the water in the pipes cool off when not in use. It's not bad but it's a noticable delay.

If you notice 3 or 4 seconds when it takes, on average, 30 seconds, depending on the distance, then it's noticeable.  Typically there is no noticeable delay since the vast thermal mass of pipes is not normally heated, unless you have a constant circulation loop, which is pretty much only found in hotels and commercial buildings.  Yes, I am an ahole.

Spring Chicken

Eight years ago my attic gas water heater went out so I called a plumber.  He was very professional from the moment I called him.  When I mentioned replacing my tank type water heater he asked where I lived.  I told him Devonshire sub-division and he said that unless I have already replaced all of the plumbing in my house, I probably have the original galvanized pipes installed at the time it was built in 1988.  He said he got the tankless question a lot and strongly recommended to not switch to tankless due to the galvanized pipe in our house.  He said some plumbers will quickly do what the customer wants knowing it will eventually cause problems.  He convinced me to stay with the tank water heater which he installed the following day.

He also added a manual 'flush' valve that drained outside the house and suggested I open the valve once each month to bleed off the accumulated calcium deposits.  I do it the first of the month and I can actually hear the particles bouncing around inside the tank as they move toward the drain. Then noise stops.  Takes less than a minute and the tank's life is extended because of the effort.

We are now using surface water that isn't as hard as the original well water but I occasionally hear some rattle in the tank during a drain.  Most likely, this is pieces of calcium that had accumulated in the pipes when we were using well water from the aquifer.

He was needed for an unrelated plumbing problem last year but he checked everything while here and our 8-year tank water heater is still good and operating normally.

I did add a circulating pump some years ago and that made a huge difference in how soon we have 'warm' water in the kitchen.  It's hot enough for most uses but gradually gets hotter when needed.  I installed it myself.  We would not be without the circulator.

As a final note, I was convinced to install a water softener early on but we disconnected it when we noticed leaks in the galvanized pipe.  The plumber who came out noticed 'blisters' (corrosion) on the galvanized pipe in the attic and asked me if I had a water softener.  I told him yes.  He said the salt from the softener is what caused the blisters that eventually leaked.  He strongly urged me to get rid of it.  He said, "Water softeners are a plumber's best friend" especially in houses with galvanized pipe.

Spring "Living And Learning" Chicken
Spring Texas USA

Mattman3969

Thanks for the info guys

fishlessman

im sure my water heater will go soon and be added to my dead tank collection, have the prices on the waterless come done yet. thats what stopped me last time

Scott805

We added a Rinnai two years ago during a remodel.  Sits in attic above my shower.  Water in 10 seconds.  Other side of house away from our bath, takes a good two minutes to get hot.  Once hot, hot water all day long!

matoch

nolaegghead said:

matoch said:

I have a rinnai unit and I've been pretty happy with it. You just have to get used to waiting longer for hot water. Since heat isn't constantly applied the water in the pipes cool off when not in use. It's not bad but it's a noticable delay.

If you notice 3 or 4 seconds when it takes, on average, 30 seconds, depending on the distance, then it's noticeable.  Typically there is no noticeable delay since the vast thermal mass of pipes is not normally heated, unless you have a constant circulation loop, which is pretty much only found in hotels and commercial buildings.  Yes, I am an ahole.

You may have a better layout for your plumbing. The day we switched out our tank for the tankless system it was very noticeable. It's more then 3 or 4 seconds. I'd say it's closer to 10. It's not unreasonable and I love the unit but I notice the length of time I have to wait overtime I go to use hot water. 

pinballLooking

BYS1981 said:

I decided not to go tankless a year ago and I'd make the same choice today if I had too. I have 3 females in my house, but also be mindful without electricity you can't use most tankless units. 

A circulation loop is much more common in homes than is use to be.

It really does save water and certain parts of the country it is required to install a recirc pump to save water.

It works very well with my tankless heater.

I liked the price of the Rinnai but the venting pipe is very expensive. By the time I added in the cost of the venting there was no savings.

matoch

pinballLooking said:

BYS1981 said:

I decided not to go tankless a year ago and I'd make the same choice today if I had too. I have 3 females in my house, but also be mindful without electricity you can't use most tankless units. 

A circulation loop is much more common in homes than is use to be.

It really does save water and certain parts of the country it is required to install a recirc pump to save water.

It works very well with my tankless heater.

I liked the price of the Rinnai but the venting pipe is very expensive. By the time I added in the cost of the venting there was no savings.

I have no idea if the install I have is normal but based on mine I'm not sure how venting pipe could be that expensive. Mine is mounted on an exterior wall in my basement and have a pipe that goes through the wall and sticks out from my house about 10 inches. Are others mounted somewhere else in the house?

hondabbq

What is the reason for the switch to tankless? We wanted tankless when our water heater was failing. We live out on 4 acres and use well water and were told to not do it as it will never work out in the long run.

We put in a Rheem Marathon water heater just over a year ago. Yes they are more expensive than a standard tank but there is never any worry of them leaking or having to change the anodes. They are a blow molded tank with 2-3" of foam insulation between the layers. Mush more energy efficient that a standard heater too.

Just a thought for you.

http://www.rheem.com/product/residential-electric-water-heaters-marathon

Canugghead

I installed an on demand Chili Pepper pump at the sink farthest from the on demand tankless heater, it has X10 wired remote and manual button and runs as needed. Works well for me but really LOUD!
http://www.chilipepperapp.com/howit.htm

stlcharcoal

One thing to think about with tankless water heaters, replace all of you "mixer" faucets.  If someone washers their hands and they flip the single handle faucet "up", that small request for hot water is enough to turn on the heater which sucks gas or electric like crazy.  So, you want to limit your use of hot water unless you really need it, otherwise the savings will be wasted.

The other nice thing about it is that you don't take a bunch of room in a utility room with a water tank--but at the same time, you lose having 50+ gallons of water on hand if something happens to your supply.

That's about all I know about them......I don't have one.  I have a geothermal system, so I get "free" hot water as a byproduct of the system.  80 gallon powered main water heater, with a non-powered 50 "buffer" tank next to it.  The geothermal's heat pump has a desuperheater that dumps its extra heat into the buffer tank, so the main tank draws from preheated water.  I had a power switch installed on the buffer tank just in case we have house guests or need that extra 50 gallons heated all the way.  Also had a bypass valve installed so we can run off the 50 gallon tank if the 80 gallon craps out.

pinballLooking

hondabbq said:

What is the reason for the switch to tankless? We wanted tankless when our water heater was failing. We live out on 4 acres and use well water and were told to not do it as it will never work out in the long run.

We put in a Rheem Marathon water heater just over a year ago. Yes they are more expensive than a standard tank but there is never any worry of them leaking or having to change the anodes. They are a blow molded tank with 2-3" of foam insulation between the layers. Mush more energy efficient that a standard heater too.

Just a thought for you.

http://www.rheem.com/product/residential-electric-water-heaters-marathon

The takagi T-H3-DV-N is supper efficient. You have endless hot water. We pipe hot water out to our barn 100’ away from our house. We don’t need hot water out there very often but when we do it is there.

We can do laundry have company and all shower and never run out of hot water.

I keep a UPS on it so when the power goes down I still have hot water for a while.

We do not change how we use hot water at all and our cost is very low to operate it.

With all that said everyone must evaluate your needs to determine if it right for you.

fishlessman

hondabbq said:

What is the reason for the switch to tankless? We wanted tankless when our water heater was failing. We live out on 4 acres and use well water and were told to not do it as it will never work out in the long run.

We put in a Rheem Marathon water heater just over a year ago. Yes they are more expensive than a standard tank but there is never any worry of them leaking or having to change the anodes. They are a blow molded tank with 2-3" of foam insulation between the layers. Mush more energy efficient that a standard heater too.

Just a thought for you.

http://www.rheem.com/product/residential-electric-water-heaters-marathon

warranty and replacement on tankless was 20 years, not sure they backed that down to the 5-10 for a tank. two big reasons for me is my basement is heated to 42 degrees in winter, really cold here on the lake and propane for heat and the tank is EXPENSIVE HERE. i burned maybe 1200 dollars this year for running hot water just in propane use boiler is propane as well, ran that one month when my back went out, 1800 for the one month. i burn coal for heat now exclusively, 400 in coal to heat the house plus 1200 propane to heat the basement and hot water. would really like to knock that bill down, i dont use much hot water

dougcrann

Had a Takagi. Heat exchanger life was about 3 years. The  parts were half the price of replacement.  After installing the third one developed a very sporadic fail to ignite problem. Called Takagi..."it could be this, it could be that"...it got replaced with an electric tank unit

pinballLooking

We have a wired remote in our master bathroom that goes to the tankless heater. We have a decent sized Jacuzzi tub 50 gallon tank would fill it half way.

With the wired remote in the master we can just turn up the water temp for a short period of time.

The when we are done with the tub we just turn the tank back down. This is very convenient.

1move

We have one and love it! A few years back our 2 year old water tank leaked and flooded the basement, luckily the basement wasn't developed and we were just in the process of planing for developing it. 

We we installed a Rinnai, the long wait times for us are nowhere near 30 seconds more like 5 seconds. The key is to get one that has a very low flow request for hot water, often times if you get a cheaper unit and you go to wash your hands in warm water it will not turn on as the "request" for that much water is below its threshold to turn on. 

For or is it works great, and I will never go back to a tank system. Not only has it saved a ton of money by not having to heat the tank all the time but it also eliminated the need to worry when we run out of hot water. 

Begger

Find a plumber and learn about INSTALL CODE.     In the past (5 years ago) when I looked, the tank REQUIRED STAINLESS exhaust venting with NO MORE than 2 or 3 90 degree bends.    
Now, with higher efficiency (more heat extracted from gas) venting is now 'back' to the standard galvanized steel.

In my DREAM SYSTEM,  you have a SMALL hot water heater at the furthest reach of the system.    This provides INSTANT hot water.     I don't know how the tankless systems respond to a recirculation system for that purpose.

Ladeback69

@Mattman3969, if you stay with the tank my plumber who recently replaced my rental property one after 20+ years that if you drain about 3 to 5 gallons out of it every 6 months you will get more life out of it.  He also said when you do it you will need to run the faucets in you tub or tubs.

@NPHuskerFL, might be a person to ask this to as well. 

BYS1981

@1move does it really save you $$ from not heating the tank? Have you compared your therm difference before and after? I work for a local utility company and people complain it uses more gas. I work with gas only, so no kW comparison.

nolaegghead

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/heating-cooling-and-air/water-heaters/tankless-water-heaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm