So I am getting into charcuterie thing.....

Sea2Ski

In my years, I have learned that you should do your research, and it right the first time rather than take shortcuts. If you do not have the time to do it correctly now, when will you?  Etc... Charcuterie seems to be the model hobby/craft where this holds true.  I am just getting started, but I am already hooked. I got Ruhlman's book, and his other book 'Salumi'. Read them both. Reading more on the net everyday and learning. But I have questions which I hope will stimulate discussion and further my education on this topic through interaction.

Bacon - Made a few batches, and love it. Cost effective? It is close. Do I care? Nope. I like it, it is fun, so I will continue. 
Question to those with more experience than me:  What salt percentage do you aim for when measuring out your cure? Seems like 2.75% salt and 1.5 % sugar appeals to me. Barely salty when cooked. I now have other experimental batches going: 3.25%, 3.75%, 4% and 5%. I hope that 5% is not going to be a salt lick. If so, I guess I will be soaking it pretty long.

Pancetta - One of the above bellies will be made into pancetta. I am thinking the 3.75% one, since it appears on the end to be the one with the most meat.
Question to those with more experience than me: Did you just hang this out in your house to dry like Ruhlman says in the book? What was your personal experience? Any advise?

Sausage: I have a commercial grinder, I have a few good recipes for uncured/traditional sausages, and I am getting more and more daring with those, but I want to try dry curing meats and sausages.
Question to those with more experience than me:  Anyone have any "beginner" recipes that they love and would be willing to share? Either sausage, or for whole cuts like pork loin? I am thinking that I should start with whole muscles first, then transition to sausages.

Curing room: I am thinking of going all in and making a meat curing locker. Old fridge, external thermostat, humidity control etc....  I can find parts of my house with the right temperature at this time of the year, but humidity right now is way to low - 35%.  If I am going to do it - gonna do it right so I can do it in all year long. Did anyone else do this? Will you share your setups? What would you do differently? Would you not do it again?

I have learned a ton here, and you are full of information and experience. Anything you would like to share on salting and curing meat would be appreciated, not only by me, but I suspect by others on this fourm as well.

Little Steven

I don't understand your question on salt percentage. Are you asking about the percentage of pink salt?

Sea2Ski

Little Steven said:

I don't understand your question on salt percentage. Are you asking about the percentage of pink salt?

no - overall salt percentage for the cure. for instance, lets say you have a belly at 3200g, how many grams of kosher salt would you use to cure? I used this site:
http://diggingdogfarm.com/page2.html
And used the calculated amounts.

Little Steven

Sugar and other things are added for flavour. Only the salt and nitrite/nitrate matter for the cure. You mentioned pancetta. It is done with salt only. There are a lot of variables when salt is concerned, i.e. if you rub it in or use the salt box method.As I understand it the meat will absorb the salt it can and not any more. There was a semi-dissertation I posted a while back that a guy I know did that was pretty concise. I'll try and find it.

Little Steven

Here you go. Again, this is not mine.
( Little Steven Posts: 26,836

March 2014

( -"what does 'Cured' mean?"   well, "cured" simply means preserved with salt and/or pink salts (nitrite).  either or both.

the moment that there's enough salt OR nitrite OR both to preserve the meat, it's considered 'cured'.

-"Can you make bacon without nitrite"?  weeeeeelllll.  yes and no.  mostly 'no'.  you can call it what you want, but it isn't 'bacon' by most standards.

-You can make a thing you refer to as 'bacon' without nitrite, but it isn't 'bacon' as we know it.   call it what you want. but it's basically salt-cured pork, like salt-pork, lardo, pancetta, prosciutto, etc. (and although you can use nitrite with some of these, traditionally you wouldn't).

-"Is nitrite used in bacon to protect against botulism?".  nope.  nitrite doesn't make solid muscle meats any safer with regard to botulism.  remember, a prosciutto is salt cured only, with no nitrite, and hangs for two years at room temp.  still safe, and no, there's no magic environmentally controlled room required either. so, there's absolutely no issue cold smoking versus hot smoking with or without nitrite.  sausages? different thing.  even with the salt, sausage is still ground meat, fat, bacteria and (potentially) botulism spores, protected from oxygen by being packed into casings and intermixed.  but muscle (ham, bacon, loin) has no botulism spores INSIDE the meat. the word' botulism' comes from the Latin word meaning sausage.  the salt is protecting you here, with regard to bacon.  even then, you refrigerate it anyway.  but that's beside the point.

-I always ask why the desire for no nitrites.  if it is for health reasons, that's admirable, but illogical.  for one thing, there's far more nitrite in a stick of celery than that pound of bacon.  and if you had a diet high in bacon, it'd be that fat and (possibly) the salt that kills you, not the nitrite.  there's no reason to be eating bacon in the first place if you have health concerns.    the salt is in much higher concentration than the nitrite.  but notice no one ever asks for a recipe for bacon without salt?  people have conflated the warning against eating lots of cured meats with the typical fear of the unknown , in this case 'chemicals!'. 

-"don't eat a diet high in cured meats if you want to stay healthy".  THAT is true.  but it ain't the nitrites.  it's the salt and fat.  let's not pick and choose.

-still worried about nitrite? ok.  then stop swallowing your spit.  more than 90% of the nitrites in your diet, including those who eat bacon, is produced by your body, because it NEEDS it.  including your own spit.

-"But I buy nitrate free bacon at Whole Foods".  No, no you don't.  You buy "no nitrite added" bacon, but it still has nitrite in it.  "wha-wha-whaaaat?!?!!?", you say?  yep, if someone prefers the "no nitrite added" bacon they get at an organic food store because they think it is healthier, they need to realize they have nothing less than the SAME salt and nitrite cured type of 'unhealthy' bacon everyone is buying from Oscar Meyer for four bucks less.  that healthfood/organic stuff typically says "no artificial nitrite added".  but they still cure it with nitrite, in the same concentration too. they just happen to use 'celerey powder' for a 'natural' source of nitrite.  saying 'natural' nitrite is better somehow than 'man made' nitrite is like saying 'natural' oxygen is better than 'man made' oxygen.  it's not, it's simply playing to ignorance and a flase sense of what is healthy.   i don't mean 'ignorant' as-in "people are stupid", i'm simply saying they are ignorant (i.e. "not aware") of what nitrite does, where it comes from, why it's there, and whether or not is is truly a danger. truth is, celery is so high in nitrite, that they powder it and use it in their cure so they can say "no artificial nitrites'.  but don't for a second think you are getting nitrite-free, or eating magically healthier bacon.

nitrite is required in our diet.  it is in very high concentrations in many vegetables (beets, celery, spinach, etc.).

if a person is TRULY worried about nitrite intake, they should push aside that spinach salad, stop eating celery as a between meal lo-cal snack, and eschew beets.  and god forbid there's arugula in your salad.  you get more nitrite from an arugula salad than from eating five hot dogs.

actually.  i am mistaken. it's not five hotdogs.  it's FIVE HUNDRED.  you need to eat FIVE HUNDRED hot dogs to get as much nitrite as an arugula salad.

so why the hell do we want to bother with adding nitrite to bacon if it isn't for botulism's sakes (it's not)?  well, it CHANGES the meat.  and it does it in a way that salt can't.  it adds a piquancy that salt lacks, it firms the meat, it gives it a familiar pleasing red color that doesn't do anything for flavor, but just keeps it from looking grey, which some associate with spoilage or 'old' meat.  the red preserves a certain fresher look, basically.

but mainly it's that it firms the meat and adds the 'cured' flavor that most people like and associate with things like ham, bacon, etc.

let's face it, a salt-brined pork loin is not at all like back bacon (canadian bacon), right? yet it's the came cut of meat. 

the only difference?  nitrite.

-difference between cold and hot smoke?  first, nitrite doesn't do jack-diddly for either. it's all about the flavor and firmness and color. but the smoke...?

Hot Smoke:  cooks the bacon.  it's easier to do, faster, and can deposit a lot of smoke.  it firms the meat (by cooking and a bit more moisture loss). that cooking and moisture loss means a firmer bacon, and when cooked in slices it will not shrink, will tend to be drier (but not in a bad way, just not sizzling/popping/spitting)

Cold Smoke: does not cook the bacon.  nitrite is not protecting against botulism hear either.  so why do it?  well, I hot smoke because it's easier.  so i cold smoke when i have a lot to do, a ham maybe at the same time, and because the smoke can be subtler.  my set-up for cold smoking (thru a aluminum dryer hose) usually involves cold weather, and by the time the smoke gets to my chamber, its condensed a bit and loss some harsher aspects.  do i taste a HUGE difference? not really.  but i do it because that means the smoked bacon is now still uncooked (though not 'raw', because it is still cured of course).  when i cook it in the pan, it will be the first time it gets cooked, and will retain a little more moisture.

keep in mind that this is DRY curing.  dry curing ALWAYS removes water from the meat.  country hams are drier, prosciutto is drier, etc.  

but supermarket bacon (and a city ham), are WET cured.  in fact, the supermarket bacon is actually processed raw, sliced and then needle injected (hundreds of needles) with brine,  then finally packaged.  it cures very quickly, on the way to the store.  that's why 'city' hams are called city hams.  they tossed them in a cask of brine, and they cured on the train on the way to the city. 

since we are very much used to supermarket bacon being limp and 'raw' feeling (floppy, obviously not cooked), we are loking for the same thing when we make bacon.  but dry cured hot smoked bacon is not this at all.  cold smoking can remove the 'cooking' aspect though, and so you end up with a similar looking product (un-cooked) to supermarket bacon.  but it will still be drier because it has had water removed (by dry curing, salt and sugar remove water), rather than had water ADDED, as commercial bacon has. )

Steve 

Caledon, ON)

 

Flag Quote

Sea2Ski

Very interesting read. The whole nitrite thing I understand - color, taste etc..All the other things, pepper, thyme, garlic, sugar etc... that is all just for taste.

I guess the question that I have comes down to, how much salt is needed to salt cure a belly by weight? I have not been able to find this answer.

What I did: I used that brine calculater I posed above, added spices by weight,  then rubbed it on the belly, and placed it all in a ziplock (well, really a vac packed) bag with most air removed, but under no vacuum pressure. And I have turned the meat 2X daily. Is there a way to know when it is fully cured?

Little Steven

You should be able to tell by the meat itself. It will first discharge water and then re-absorb it. The meat will take on a dryer, firmer consistency. It will be fully cured in the time from the method or earlier. I mentioned the salt box method above. The guy that authoured that bit told me that the salt box method is totally dependable. Take your mix of nitrite and salt, put it in a container and lay the meat in it, flip it from side to side and end to end so that it all comes in contact with the mix. whatever adheres is enough to do it.

caliking

You may be interested in this :
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=188117

Sea2Ski

caliking said:

You may be interested in this : http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=188117

Bingo.  They did what I am looking to do! Looks like a fun project and it will be a fun one too!  Thank you!

yzzi

I did this meat locker conversation and it works very well. http://benstarr.com/blog/how-to-convert-a-refrigerator-for-curing-meat-or-aging-cheese/

hondabbq

I got into it by buying some snack sticks from Hi Mountain to see if I liked doing it. One thing led to another and now I do everything. There is still some things I want to do ( weather permitting).

My first run of bacon was done with MTQ and I have made a few more including CBB. It worked out well. I recently bought some pink salt from the US so im making my first run with my own cure. I will be using the digging dog calculator, and making my own adjustments from there.

I love sausages. Now I love making them too. I know what goes into them, I can season the way I want to. The sky is the limit.

Sea2Ski

yzzi said:

I did this meat locker conversation and it works very well. http://benstarr.com/blog/how-to-convert-a-refrigerator-for-curing-meat-or-aging-cheese/

@yzzi I saw that page before. Looks to be along the same lines as the thread @Caliking posted. I am going to do it. I am now in the hunt for fridge off craigslist. I am going to try and be patient and find one that is all fridge, and no freezer. I figure if I can get one in a month or two, I will be in good shape.

Can't believe I am going to be doing this... I am pushing myself. I guess that is when you feel most successful - stepping out of your comfort zone and trying something new. I guess I will know if I am successful if I do not get sick after eating what I make.

DMW

Sea2Ski said:

yzzi said:

I did this meat locker conversation and it works very well. http://benstarr.com/blog/how-to-convert-a-refrigerator-for-curing-meat-or-aging-cheese/

@yzzi I saw that page before. Looks to be along the same lines as the thread @Caliking posted. I am going to do it. I am now in the hunt for fridge off craigslist. I am going to try and be patient and find one that is all fridge, and no freezer. I figure if I can get one in a month or two, I will be in good shape.

Can't believe I am going to be doing this... I am pushing myself. I guess that is when you feel most successful - stepping out of your comfort zone and trying something new. I guess I will know if I am successful if I do not get sick after eating what I make.

If you find an all freezer - no fridge, that would work as well with the external temp controller. I'm looking for an upright freezer right now, I hope you aren't searching the same craigslist areas I am...

Sea2Ski

I probably am.  Only about 20 Miles south of you. :-S

What kills me is that I got rid of a big chest freezer about 4 months ago. Sold it back to PECO and got $50 for it. It was replaced with an upright. Would have been perfect for this project.

DMW

Sea2Ski said:

I probably am.  Only about 20 Miles south of you. :-S

What kills me is that I got rid of a big chest freezer about 4 months ago. Sold it back to PECO and got $50 for it. It was replaced with an upright. Would have been perfect for this project.

I've only been looking at Reading and Lancaster CL, good tip to watch Chester County...

Sea2Ski

Are you looking only for a freezer? If you happen to find a fridge.....

DMW

Sea2Ski said:

Are you looking only for a freezer? If you happen to find a fridge.....

I'll let you know if I see something.

RRP

While we are on the subject - or at least close by - I'm in to dry aging and one thing about choosing a refrigerator it is best to avoid those tiny dormitory refrig units and even cheap under the counter models. While they can cool they typically do not circulate the air inside nor do they extract moisture from the air inside. You don't have to spend a lot of money and if you can't talk SWMBO into giving up space in the kitchen refrig then a used unit as long as it works is just fine.

westernbbq

well, I got a LEM #12 meat grinder and a 5lb piston driven canister hand crank sausage stuffer about a year and a half ago and love using all of  it.  attached is a pict of homemade Italian sausage (ground pork shoulder), spiced and cased with the equipment and then put on the Big Green Egg.  Succulent

nolaegghead

Little Steven  You dug up Stike!?

I didn't read this whole thread, but there's a lot of misinformation floating around based on the little I did read.  I can elaborate further, later, but salt percentages are being flogged like the village idiot here.  You have surface area, weight, salt, dry and wet curing, time, etc.  It can get confusing, and I will dive in later if I may.  Stike, bless his heart, is a brilliant M-Fer, and his diatribe is 99% accurate, although it doesn't address some of the curing statements or questions made here.