Brining before curing

okesmokie

Is it possible to brine meats first and then start the curing? In other words will the brining interfere with the curing possess?

Focker

Pickling/wet curing is both.  Only difference between that and brining is adding nitrites/nitrates.

It is my preferred method to cure, experienced too many inconsistencies with dry curing.  

Focker

An excellent video series on equilibrium brining....

http://stellaculinary.com/podcasts/video/the-science-behind-brining-resource-page

 

 

 

 

Focker

Forum is still drunk, links are not showing up.

Lastly, a useful cure calculator.....

http://diggingdogfarm.com/page2.html

 

 

SenecaTheYounger

A pickle, which is a wet cure, is typically much higher in salt and flavor concentration than a brine, applied for a longer time, and is often reused (in rural France, they are added to over time as needed and boiled or skimmed every couple months). 

A brine tends to be shorter term, less concentrated in salt, and more for adding some flavor, but mostly adding moisture in order to prevent drying out when cooking.  It may also have sodium nitrite in it, but typically doesn't here in the U.S.  German pork chops are often brined with it though, in addition to salt.

If you are brining first in order to add flavors, and then curing after that, you can just add the flavors to the cure and skip the brine.

If you are saying that you already have something which has been brined, and want to further cure it with sodium nitrite, you won't hurt anything other than risking it being too salty.  But given that your cure is higher in salt, it would probably actually draw out some salt first before it eventually equalized to the levels desired from a cure.

Basically, shouldn't be a problem, but I don't see a reason to do it in the first place.

nolaegghead

This is how I've come to understand it.

Pickling is brining food (often called corning with meat), especially at a low pH, less than 4.  The pH is lowered either by adding acid (vinegar) or though lactic acid generated by anaerobic bacteria.  The low pH preserves the food by killing most bacteria.

Brining is soaking stuff in salt water.

Curing can be wet or dry, include or exclude nitrites/nitrates, with salt, smoke or through dehydration, fat (confit) or sugar (also confit). 

Through osmosis, the water and salt concentration will try to equalize.

Focker

Diffusion is the method of transport, not osmosis.  I once thought that too.

(A good explanation of that is in video 1 linked above.) 

nolaegghead

Thanks, I'll have to go back and watch that.  Another correction, corning isn't always done at a low pH, such as with corned beef.  At least not much anymore.  So that goes in the brine category.

SenecaTheYounger

A wet cure is also (often) called a 'Pickle', independent of and not the same as the brine used in, say, making 'pickling' cucumbers.

There are a lot of shared terms in curing, but they aren't always meaning exactly the same  thing across all applications. Which is what can make things confusing. A person making first forays into curing must really pay attention to the recipe, and understand what the end result is going to be, before attempting it or making substitutions, or before making substitutions based on similar terms.

Too many times we see people using Himalayan 'pink salt' because they are not familiar with 'pink salts', for example.

A traditional word used for the liquid in which a ham is wet cured is a "pickle", but it doesn't involve anaerobic bacteria, or any of the acidic sour elements found in the "pickling" solution you may use when making pickles at room temperature. It's just what that solution has been called for ages.

nolaegghead

Yep.  I see many of those terms being used interchangeably, unfortunately it is confusing.

I've never heard of anyone using Himalayan salt thinking it has nitrite in it, but I wouldn't be surprised.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/a/what-is-the-differences-between-brining-pickling-corning-marinating-and-curing

Focker

By some of the questions that pop up on the subject, I'm sure it's been done. lol 

SenecaTheYounger

People read a recipe that says "pink salts" and rather than take the time to understand what they are doing, they simply wander off looking for pink salt. And since Himalayan Pink Salt is fairly common, they buy that.

Happens quite a bit actually

http://eggheadforum.com/search?Search=himalayan+pink

In truth, leaving "pink salts" (#1 Cure, sodium nitrite) out of many cures (whole muscle) isn't actually dangerous. Leaving out #2 though (with sodium nitrate) , in sausages, certainly would be. 

But thankfully #2 isn't pink, and so the worst that can happen if you omit true pink salts is to get a lesser-cured result. Still safe, just not properly done.

nolaegghead

Depends on what you're doing.  First of all, pink salt is just a synonym for curing salt with nitrates/nitrites - they add a dye to make it look different than regular salt.  I have both #1 and #2 and they're both pink.  Second, #2 is the same as #1 except for a small amount of sodium nitrate which is a "time release" nitrite.  I use #1 all the time for safety - whenever I cure and cold smoke. Andouille sausage, bacon and salmon are good examples.   A cold smoker is a great environment for botulism.  You don't need #2 unless you're aging or shooting for a long shelf life.  Bresaola, fermented sausage are good examples of needing #2.

I didn't see where anyone actually substituted Himalyan salt as pink salt.  Lots of confusion and questions about it, sure.  You're right, it isn't going to be dangerous to omit for the majority of curing people do here on the forum - sausage, corned beef, hot smoked pastrami, hot smoked bacon.  But the flavor isn't going to be the same.

SenecaTheYounger

Whole muscle meats may be safely cured and stored at room temperature with salt alone, including bresaola, which traditionally is heavily salt cured with herbs, but not nitrite or nitrate.   Prosciutto is another good example.  Whoile muscle, no interior botulism risk (as with sausage).

You can safely cold smoke bacon (as MountainDewBass asked repeatedly last month) which has been cured with no 'pink salts'.  I don't know why you would, because it will not be the typically cured bacon we are familiar with, but there would be no danger of botulism because it is a whole muscle meat.

I am sure I will now be told about the anaerobic environment in a smoker.  That's not really the case for the most part, especially with cold smoking.

Sausages require #2 because they are ground meat.  The bresaola recipe you reference (if it is Ruhlman's recipe you are referring to) does CALL for #2, but it is not required. Ruhlman has said (correctly) that it is his choice, for improvements to color and terxture and some flavor.

 It is whole muscle. It dopes not require it.  As an example, his pancetta recipe (also whole muscle) does not call for it though. It is also whole-muscle, but curiously, it is rolled and tied, creating the same entrained environment that sausage might (anaerobic, fats, warm temperatures). Even then, not an issue.

But as he says (and has said many times), and as is standard in old-world curing, properly salt cured, whole muscles meats don't actually require either #1 or #2.  Some benefit from it, but no one is dying from prosciutto.

Cold smoking usually involves an aerobic environment anyway, or one that is not truly anaerobic. Hot smoking negates the issue, since there is heat involved to keep any surface organisms in check.

#1 is now mainly a stylistic (flavor, texture) choice, not a safety necessity.  But #2 is a necessity for ground meats in casings, but not for whole muscle.

I do know that using salt isn't the same as using curing salts.  I think those leaving it off are not even sure why they do. 

But I have seen a lot of online curing forums and barbecue forums where an enthusiastic noobie has purchased Himalayan Pink Salts, or is confused enough to ask if that is what he should purchase. That's all I am saying.

Please don't take this as a debate. 

nolaegghead

I don't think you understand the difference between the #1 and #2.  I don't disagree with most of what you said, but the nitrate in the #2 is for aging - it's a time release, released through bacteria and oxidation to keep the nitrite concentration up over time, sure for safety not flavor.  But the "active" ingredient is nitrite.  How it's handled after the cure is the difference there.

I'm not going to say cold smoking is anaerobic, it can be, but the risk from botulism there is temperature.  Although I trust in the old world methods, I'm not going to make someone new to curing take risks that could kill them.

http://ruhlman.com/2011/02/meat-curing-safety-issues/