Royal Oak Disaster... Comments please.....

Chubbs

Okay ladies and gents. Need some help on this one-- apologize for long post. Tonight was my first real cook with Royal Oak after I purchased 40lbs the other day. I topped off the egg with a little on my last cook, but this was my first full cook with it. All I did was ABTs as an app. As many of you know, I am fairly new to the forum and the egg. I have been pretty cocky as most of my cooks have been pretty good without issue..... Until tonight.... The only difference from my last 30+/- cooks was I used my first full load of RO and used BGE fire starters as opposed to Publix brand. Other than that, same method for starting fire, lit fire in two spots,let fire burn for roughly 10-15 minutes before shutting egg, etc. When I closed the egg to bring up to temp, it slowly rose to 400 degree--- nothing too abnormal-- slower than normal if anything. I burped the egg when I opened it to throw on ABTs and my first huge flare up despite the burp. No worries, no panic, just went about my business. My setup was platsetter feet up, drip pan, grate, ABTs on grate. As I was putting them on, the fire started getting out control. Within a few more seconds, I had fire coming out of my bottom vent about a foot!!!! I immediately closed bottom vent and shut the lid to try to settle fire. Eventually it worked. I let fire burn for a while and attempted to restabalize fire to 300 degrees, only I could not get it lower than 350. I had the bottom vent barely open and the daisy wheel on with holes 85% open. If i had to guess, set like a normal 225-250 degree cook for me. It would not go lower. Thermometer calibrated in boiling water. I eventually got ABTs on, but the fire smelled even though it had been burning for 45 minutes by this point. I pulled out the bag of RO thinking I mistakenly grabbed RO briquettes as opposed to lump, but it was the red bag of lump. Acutally it didnt say lump, just 100% hardwood charcoal, but the pieces looked like normal BGE lump. To make matters worse, after ABTs cooked, I accidentally bumped the grill in the nest and knocked bacon grease dont into charcoal (need to clean out egg now?) I closed bottom vent and put on green lid to smother fire and fire rose to 450 degrees!!! An hour later, it is still 350 degrees on dome thermometer. So.... question is, anyone have same issues? Does RO burn hotter? I know Stike probably wants to punch me right now and tell me BGE charcoal and RO are the same, but this was freaking bizarre. Posted a few pics of the cook and vents for your review....  

GreenhawK

I haven't used Royal Oak, but it sounds like it was getting a lot of air to fuel the fire.  If I keep my lid open to long when I am putting the food on after the temp is stabilized, I will have flare ups like that.  Looks like it's just from the coals getting extra oxygen in there.  I do think it should have cooled down though, unless your cook was so fast that it didn't have time to.  

I don't really see how it could be charcoals fault unless there was some type of chemical such as lighter fluid or something on it.

Chubbs

I did clean the whole egg out prior to the cook, so it had good airflow for sure. The fire smelled strong though--- almost like lighter fluid, that is why I checked the bag even though I knew it was lump. Thought I was losing my mind... Still do kind of..

Total burn time of lump was about an hour and 15 minutes. 45 to heat and then deal with raging fire, then cooked for 30 minutes.

 

gerhardk

Are you sure you had stabilized the temperature and not just reached your target?  

I did pork chops this afternoon, direct about 375º dome, when I put the chops (4) on the coals burned fairly vigorously but once I closed the lid it did not take long for things to settle back to stabilized temp.

Gerhard

IrishDevl

Chubbs, I think we are both losing our mind, I just used RO last night for the first time.  I swear, I thought I smelled lighter fluid when I lit it.  I went inside, vent open, daisy wheel off and the temp needle was pinned when I came out - 5 10 minutes.  Serious stuff.  I was able to stabilize it took a while, it just jumped very quickly.  

Chubbs

Yeah, I had it stabilized. Left out a few details to keep post from getting longer than it already was. Brought temp to 400, shut vent down and put on daisy wheel to get to target temp of 300. Got it stabilized while I was working in kitchen. When came out with ABTs, burped egg, then when I was getting ready to put them on was when it all started. I mean fire coming out of bottom vent a foot??!! My brother has had an egg for 4 years and never had that happen. I am sure it was the Indian and not the arrow for sure, but wanted to see if anyone has had similar experience.

IrishDevl

Not quite like that my man, but RO is some mean burnin s&^%

MaskedMarvel

Lol!

My first cook with Royal Oak was what started that quagmire for me over there. I also had a serious early jump in temperature but controlled it well after the initial retro rocketing. Your story sounds familiar right down to the flames out the bottom.

I didn't smell any off odors.

Are you using a high q grate or the stock? I'm stock.

Chubbs

I am cooking for some friends this weekend so I better get this under control. Wonder if the bacon grease will cause bad smell on next cook? Can't be too much different than burgers or steaks dripping grease into lump. I am surprised I didn't fry my gasket.

MaskedMarvel

Coincidentally I spilled my ABT grease tonight. Half hit the plate setter. I just put it face down and left the top off the Egg while we ate. Heat and flame seem to have done their job.

Chubbs

Lol!

My first cook with Royal Oak was what started that quagmire for me over there. I also had a serious early jump in temperature but controlled it well after the initial retro rocketing. Your story sounds familiar right down to the flames out the bottom.

I didn't smell any off odors. Stock grate

Are you using a high q grate or the stock? I'm stock.

Chubbs

Sorry. Stock grate. iPad going nuts now!!! Got a cloud over me tonight!!!

IrishDevl

It's the lighter fluid, JK, don't think that happens.

Chubbs

Or the several "pops" (beers) I caught during the night. I have two rules in my house:

1. If I cook it is on the egg
2. If I cook I drink beer

Makes for some fun 6am cooks.

lousubcap

@ Chubbs-I have been using the Kroger version of Royal Oak for about a year now (averages out to around $5.75/8.8# bag).  Works well for me.  Never have experienced anything like you described.  Sorry, no pearls of wisdom here.  But I do subscribe to your cook/beer philosophy-the overnighters are tough once early afternoon rolls around.

stike

lots of new lump (you had a full load) and a mild temp (350-400) means you will have a LOT of VOCs and a lot of dust on the lump.  If you are cooking at 400, I wouldn't fill too much. Top off an old load, sure. But you said you did your "first full load".

An important distinction here is NOT that you had too much fuel.  That's not an issue.  Just like a car does not go faster when it has a full tank of gas, an egg does not burn hotter if it has more lump.

but.

When you have a large load of fresh lump, and only really ever get to around 350-400, you will still have a lot of VOC and dust on the lump if you start cooking as soon as you hit 400.  If you'd let that go for a long while, it would have been less aggressive.  Less chance of flashback or fire from below.

See.... it quickly got to 400.  And would be fine cruising that way.  But since it hadn't been there for a long time, the  VOCs (which are flammable) are biding their time waiting for fresh oxygen.  They can't burn because the fire is limited.  When you open the dome.  FOOM.  they ignite.  Worse, because there is a lot of lump, you'll have a lot of VOCs.  I have had it happen where I could open the dome every ten seconds if I wanted and get a flashback.   That is ALWAYS because of a lot of fresh fuel and relatively low temps.

Why? well, the low temps mean not so much draft, and not enough time to drive off the VOCs.  If you were searing steaks, the draft may have been enough to clear it all out and you may not have had a flashback. (Unless you shut the vents and choke the fire, then open it again).

Other thing is dust.  This happens with the end of the bag (when I dump the tailing into the gg), or again, when there is a lot of fresh lump and a low fire.  Dust offers yet another chance for flareups.  Just like flour in the air will blow up a silo, dust on the lump will ignite.  It sits there in a maelstrom of heat, but isn't burning, because (again) there's no extra oxygen.  But then you open the egg, and it can ignite just like VOCs do. Dust eventually burns off I think, too.

Don't be alarmed.  This isn't something to worry about.  Flashbacks are ALWAYS predictable, and once you know their idiosyncrasies, you won't ever again guess or flinch when opening the dome, or need to open the daisy and wait, or burp the egg.  They happen only when conditions are right.

Once they happen, too, the temp takes off.  This is because so much stuff (fuel) was heated, raring to go, but not yet fully involved.  then, after the flashback, and the influx of air, they get what they need, start burning, and the draft takes off.  The chimney effect kicks in.  There's so much draft because of the fire caused by the influx of air, that the outgoing smoke now travels faster.  ....which mean air comes in faster now, even though vents settings are essentially the same.  and so the fire steps up a notch.

Sorry for the frigging encyclopedia.  I always err on the side of trying to explain things, rather than dropping a set of rules on someone and simply 'telling' them what to do.

Next time, if your egg is totally clean/empty, and you only want a short 400 degree cook, just fill it a little.  The VOCs and all that will burn off quick enough, soon after you get to temp.  If you overfill with all NEW lump, the 400-degree fire isn't drafting enough to clean it all out in a short time.  You can still fill it up, you'll just need to wait longer to blow off the explosive stuff (and burn off dust).

I maintain a bed of old lump, and simply top off.  Often, I don't even top it off.  Short quick cook? use the old lump.  Quicker to temp and no waiting for smoke to clear.

But on the occasion when I have had a full load of lump, and just wanted a quick 350-400 fire, I have been greeted with the fireball, or watched the dragon stick it's tongue out from the lower vent, struggling to escape.

The dragon wants to breathe fire, and it will, unless you learn his personality.  Which you will

Chubbs

Stike, I actually appreciate the encyclopedia response. It is much easier for me to pick up facts from a long post on the subject than tidbits from various posts (albeit fun to read a ton of posts) that may barely scratch the surface of the issue at hand. So, thanks for the response. I put your name in my post hoping for this long response

The remaining lump in the egg was all the size of a quarter or smaller, so I opted to clean out so as not to clog my holes blocking airflow. I did notice the lump was really dusty when I poured it in- so dusty I couldn't really see how full I filled it until some dust settled. I didn't feel like I overfilled it by any means, but I see your point on all fresh lump and a medium temp cook not allowing time to completely burn the VOCs. That is why I brought it to 400 for a 300 degree cook. I guess where I am confused is you would fill the egg up all the way for a low and slow long cook which is at an ever lower temp than where I was last night. Do you bring the egg up to high temperature to burn off VOCs then choke back down to 250, or catch it on way up say at 400 then choke it back and stabilize at 250 and wait a while to burn off VOCs?

Thanks again for the response. I really appreciate you taking time to teach me a thing or two ( or 20).

stike

don't bring the egg over your temp on purpose in an effort to burn off the VOCs quicker or (as we often hear) to "establish a good fire".  this will just heat the ceramics up, and since they are famous for holding heat (it's one of the reasons they cruise at rock-steady temps), you will stay at that higher temp for a longer time than you want.

we fill the egg on a low and slow because you are playing it safe, knowing that a long overnight fire will need to travel around and find fuel.  truth be told, if you have the chops for it, you can do an overnight cook on the proverbial "handful of lump"  i know one guy that does it.  he does ribs and butts direct, but because he only uses exactly what he needs for lump, and no more, the fire is so far down he doesn't need a platesetter or indirect set-up.

many ways to skin a cat.   most of us dump a lot of lump in for an overnight as a precaution.  and since we can snuff the fire and reuse unburnt lump, there's no harm.  but even then, we usually let the fire go about an hour or so to become stable AND to blow off the VOCs.  a long continuous draft will do it.  you also don't technically need to burn off VOCs (by getting the egg to higher heat), you can also just let them waft away on the slow draft.  just needs to be a little longer time if the draft is slow.

and since a low fire (250 or so) isn't very powerful, you don't get a flashback when you open a low-temp grill filled with fresh charcoal.  you were lucky enough (unlucky?) to find the sweet spot: fresh load of lump and a lot of it, moderate temps with enough lit lump to provide a source for fire, and low enough draft (or not enough time) to mean that a lot of VOCs and dust are still hanging around.

350 was my record low for this.  you can also see (if you hadn't opened the lid) the dome launch itself a bit, hopping and chuffing as the fire gets a little air from between the gaskets and explodes (a little).  that's freaky.

also will sometimes see the tongue of fire stab itself out from the lower vent as if to say "hey guys, there's oxygen out here!"

but it's almost always at these medium temps with fresh lump.  if not that, it's when you have been raging at 700 or so for a while and then immediately choke the fire by shutting vents.  that fire doesn't go out. it just dims.  where the HELL did the oxygen go?  and then, like a swimmer reaching the air after holding his breath for too long, when the fire gets the inrush from the dome being opened, it takes in a massive gasp and the fire explodes to life again

Chubbs

Thanks for the info Stike. You have given me some incite and for that I am grateful. I look forward to sharing more adventures soon.