Building a new table-need help

opharbor

The table that I got with my egg is starting to deteriorate ....FAST, leaning pretty bad. So Dear Wife told me to fix it before we lose it. I am building one nearly exact to the original, only with PT instead of the original cedar. It is 5+ years old and I have never disassebled it. I think that it's too heavy to move intact. I want to break it down so that I can salvage the wheels and transfer it to the new table. Are there any tricks to it? I don't want to break it by trying to take it apart, but I don't want to break it by transfering it whole either. Can anyone give some suggestions? BTW it is a large. Thanks for the help.

stike

PT is no less likely to deteriorate.  structurally PT is a poorer choice than the original table. PT is nothing but pine, with widely spaced growth rings (fast-growth). 

for about the same money you can have a better table in cedar, for example.

if the original is leaning, it's probably a structural issue, not rot.  If i remember, the original table doesn't have any real bracing, so it can eventually rack.  That's a problem with the connections and corners, and something that can be fixed by redesigning them.  New wood with the same design would still eventually be problematic, and the type of wood you use won't solve it.  In fact, I'd think PT would be more prone, because it is a very soft and damp-prone wood (especially left unfinished, which a lot of folks do even though it requires finish) . 

lots of folks have mentioned the racking problem.  hard to see on the web, but i wonder first about the corners and their connections first, wood second.
and if it came down to wood, PT is not any structurally more sound than others.  it's a soft wood, in the end.

opharbor

OK, So I've already partially built the table with PT, probably not the best but I had some lying around. You are correct about the engineering, no real structural support. I am engineering it much better by the addition of cross members and corner brackets. At a later date, I'm planning on "prettying it up" but for now just want to get it stable. I'm planning on topping it with Ipe, which is what I built my deck with. I just have to figure out how to A) afford it and how to cut it, that stuff is tough. I live a couple of blocks from the ocean so everything takes a beating. If I can make this one last even three years (except for the top), I'll be happy and then think about a real engineering project for it. How about getting the egg apart, after 5+ years will it be difficult.

stike

I'm sure the structural support is fine (the egg is carried by the framing easily enough), it's the connections that I think fail.  people tend to tighten when things get wobbly.  that crushes wood, and delays the inevitable.  But eventually it racks (goes out of square) again.

the corners are 'moment connections', and that's pretty difficult to pull off in wood.  trying to join two pieces of wood at a 90 degree angle so that it never goes out of square is tough to do with just screws or bolts. but the harder the wood (more dense), the better chance you have.

best would be to mortise them, or introduce diagonal bracing, or stiffeners.  i think the diagonal bracing and stiffeners would be tough to make attractive, but they'd be sure-fire.  if not braced, the corners need to be as secure as possible. bolts (more than one) likely better in the long term than screws

BarManBean

For getting your egg out, try removing the top boards and the very back and cutting out a section of the back support (horizontal).  You should then be able to slide your egg out the back instead of having to lift it up through the top (very difficult).

I did this on my table for easy install/egress of the egg, worked great.

fairchase

PT is no less likely to deteriorate.  structurally PT is a poorer choice than the original table. PT is nothing but pine, with widely spaced growth rings (fast-growth). 

for about the same money you can have a better table in cedar, for example.

if the original is leaning, it's probably a structural issue, not rot.  If i remember, the original table doesn't have any real bracing, so it can eventually rack.  That's a problem with the connections and corners, and something that can be fixed by redesigning them.  New wood with the same design would still eventually be problematic, and the type of wood you use won't solve it.  In fact, I'd think PT would be more prone, because it is a very soft and damp-prone wood (especially left unfinished, which a lot of folks do even though it requires finish) . 

lots of folks have mentioned the racking problem.  hard to see on the web, but i wonder first about the corners and their connections first, wood second.
and if it came down to wood, PT is not any structurally more sound than others.  it's a soft wood, in the end.

My results with cedar haven't been as stellar. For me pt last much longer . I have pt that is 20 years old , has never seen sealer , and is still structurally sound.

Availability can also be a problem depending on where you are located. Here in Ky. nobody even stocks cedar.

stike

pt on a table makes no use of the pressure treating.  and since the value in PT is in the treatment (because it is poor wood otherwise), it is a waste of the extra expense.

PT should be sealed, by the way, otherwise the treatment leaches out over time. even in contact with concrete it needs a plastic barrier (rarely used, however). wood used in a table shouldn't rot anyway, or be attacked by insects...  it's contact with the ground that warrants PT.  the PT folks have made serious cash over the years prefabbing sections of porches, etc.  stuff which shouldn't rot anyway.

ah well. soap box dismounted

fairchase

 The people that have made serious cash are the ones selling sealers for pt. It has been my experience that sealers on pt make water bead up for a little while, and keep the wood looking less weathered , but the pt treatment prevents decay just fine without sealers.

  I don't understand your statement that " pt on a table makes no use of the pressure treating ".

Also you don't think a non sealed wooden table that sits out in the sun , and elements 24/7 will rot ?

Lastly do you believe that rot caused by ground contact is a specific kind of rot , and this is the only kind of rot pt has any effect on ?

Not trying to start anything here . I just don't see where your coming from.

For the record I'm not fond of pine. I do like the low maintinence , and  decay resistance of pt.

Pt cedar would be lovely if it was made.

HebearMcGhee

Please people, stop building grill tables out of PT Pine. Yes its cheap, and readily available. But considering the poor quality of the material in the market, the expected shrinkage, checking, and splitting as it dries out, and most importantly the health concerns of food cross contamination, PT Pine is a product to avoid for grill tables period.

stike

any wood kept dry will serve you well with minimal risk of rot.  insects won't be attacking a table, in open air, three inches off the ground. and if they did, you'd see them right away and be able to take care of it.

thing about pt... pt was developed for use as an alternative to concrete for foundations, for contact with soil.
but even when PT is used properly in the construction industry, it is kept apart from concrete (or soil, damp, etc.) with a plastic membrane, or from the ground (if a foundation) by wrapping in plastic, or by keeping it dry (crushed stone under it, to allow draining, for ex.)
 
but a piece of PT in bare direct contact (as a sill) with concrete eventually wicks all the PT treatment into the concrete, leaving bare pine wood in contact with a damp surface. so does pt when used on a dock or unstained/sealed/painted porch.  eventually the rain and sun degrade the treatment.  then the wood is completely unprotected, and additionally you get splitting and checking because the wood is exposed to rain, drying by sun, rain again, sun again, etc. and because the GIANT growth rings (i've seen 1/4" growth) is predisposed to checking. none of this PT stuff is quarter-sawn, it's all centers of fast-growing pine.  a veritable twist-o-rama

what i am saying is that PT does not protect against anything, all by itself.  it needs to be protected itself. unsealed (unpainted, unstained, for example) the surface is exposed to the weather, and the treatment is eventually degraded, leaving you with bare exposed pine.

having seen more than a few porches where checking and splitting is a problem, it's clear that people believe PT need not be finished.  unless you are using teak or some other dense, small grained, decay-resistant wood, you pretty much need to seal it. 

and if wood is properly sealed, it doesn't NEED to be PT, which means PT offers no benefit.  wood will not rot in open air.

i use PT all the time.  attaching a ledger to a house, as a sill for a set of wood steps (resting on cruched tamped gravel, so that it drains)

wet is the issue.  keep it dry, no rot.

all i am saying is that home depot and the PT industry has never sold PT as something that can remain unfinished.  it's all back-yard D.I.Y. lore and misunderstanding.  contractors have told people for years to 'let the surface dry out for a few months before you paint or stain...).  that somehow became 'i can leave my porch unfinished forever and it will magically be fine'.

anyone who ever got a splinter from a PT deck or porch will tell you that's bunkum.

i'm not trying to beat anyone about the head and neck.  decide what you will.

but a mahogany/oak/cedar/cypress table will outlast and outperform PT, and look a heck of a lot better while doing it  (no one makes boats out of pressure treated pine). and it does it often at the same cost, or for just a little more.  1200 bucks on a grill, but saving thirty dollars on a table... seems odd to a simple dude like me.

no one in their right mind would advocate building a table from crappy pine kiln-dried studs and leaving it outside unprotected.  but that's exactly what is happening when a table is built of PT, left outside, and unfinished.  with the added bonus sometimes of warping and twisting as the highly wet PT dries out.

just trying to offer a dissenting opinion to the common misconception that PT is a wonder-product that allows continued mistreatment of the wood forever.

sure, it's a rant.  i just can't fathom looking at a pile of PT sitting next to other options, at the lumber yard, and deciding that it is a better option simply because it is PT, when you aren't in need of the PT anyway, and often are UNDOING it by not protecting the treatment.

of all the wood i have seen attacked by insects or rotting away, none of it has ever been a piece of daily use furniture.  a corner of a foundation exposed to damp? sure.

but held off the ground, in open free air, i don't see the point of PT.  and the money you spent on their making fast-growth low-grade pine (knots, twisting, warping) into more expensive PT could likewise be spent on something that looks nicer and will serve you better in the long run. 

i'm not calling anyone stupid for using PT.  i use it myself.  just trying to offer a little more thought on the matter, and to undo some common misconceptions about the stuff.

it's not a panacea.

even stainless steel will rust, too. just as something being 'stainless' doesn't mean it will last longer, neither does something being pressure treated

stike

fwiw... re: cedar.  cedar is naturally rot resistant....

Little Steven

Well that was quite a dissertation.

stike

when someone asks for an explanation, shouldn't i give an explanation?

i can't win.  if i gave that response FIRST, to head off the inevitable question, i'd still be given grief. 

anyway, i find information to be a better foundation for decision making than gut feel, or what 'some guy' told me

Shwiezzee

I love a good stike dissertation! Forget what Angry Birds cost me a year when stike's on a role. Hell, I'll let a call go to VM. 

fairchase

Stike,

  Here is a hypothetical scenerio .

 Build anything you wish out of pt.

 Build the exact same thing out of kiln dried pine.

 Build the exact same thing out of cedar.

Never put any type of sealer or protectant on the pt.

Since the pt came with 1 treatment you can if you wish apply 1 and only 1 treatment of your choice to the kiln dried pine and the cedar piece .

Set all 3 pieces out in your yard , off the ground , and totally unprotected from the elements.

Which do you think will become structurally unsound first , and which will last the longest ?

yumdinger

I just used 4x4 and 2x4 Cedar for structure, 5/4 and 1x4 cedar trim, James Hardy Panel Siding and Porcelain tile for the top.  All held together with using the kreg joining system.   $200 in supplies total.  Measures 33"deep x 60" long X 32.5"tall.  I expect this table to be here long after I die.

 

Oh my answer to your question is the Cedar.

burr_baby33

What about composite?

Mocamarc

Friends of mine have used cypress wood.  Very weather, bug resistant.

yumdinger

I have seen composite used as a siding material but it does not have any structural intergrity. 

stike

pt is NOT a finish treatment.  under pressure, it is subsumed into the wood.  it will eventually wick out or be rinsed out by rain.

IT IS NOT A FINISH.
we built about a billion dollars worth of buildings in the time i was there.  none have rotted into the ground yet, and we used PT only where it paid off, not as a magic cure all .

don't get me started on the guys who cover the whole roof with bituthene.  bad enough they need it at the eaves (you shouldn't need it if you build properly).  nut you should NEVER need it across the entire roof.

as i mentioned, if you like the look and finish of PT, go for it.  but there is no difference between an unfinished kiln dried stud and PT, except for the PT.  neither one is a finished piece of wood and suitable for exposure to the elemnts for an extended period. and uninished PT will quickly become regular old wood (just like that cheap pine stud) if you allow the pressure treating to wick out or be washed off.  laving something to rain and sun cycles is basically washing it.

unfinished cedar shingles? go for it.  but PT will eventually be reduced to plain old pine

stike

yumdinger, yer right.  composite is useless structurally (which is why they make it so thick for even a 12" center joist spacing), and heck, usually more expensive than, say, mahogany.

Jasper

Common PT wood contains arsenic, I hope you're that for the framing only and not the table top.

opharbor

Just as a side note:

but a mahogany/oak/cedar/cypress table will outlast and outperform PT, and look a heck of a lot better while doing it  (no one makes boats out of pressure treated pine). and it does it often at the same cost, or for just a little more.  1200 bucks on a grill, but saving thirty dollars on a table... seems odd to a simple dude like me.

I already built the table with PT,  so no going back there, but I wanted a hardwood top, so I went to the local lumber yard, and what I found was a great reason NOT to build the whole thing with hardwood.

#1 you can't really get mahogany anymore but HOND mahogany is $11.95 m. Sapele is the typical mahogany replacement @ 7.95 m (4/4)

Teak 4/4 is 21.95 m

S4S red oak is 31.00 (1x8x8)

and Ipe is 6.50 m

By the way if anyone has ever looked at Ipe, I would highly recommend it if you can afford it. I built my deck 6 years ago using it for deck board. To date no one has ever gotten a splinter, I have never tightened or replaced a screw and until this year I have never put a sealer on it. I did this year because my wife loves the look of it when wet (kind of a teak color). I patina's grey but with the sealer it's like new. I have also droped hot lump on it and it barely chars it. Alsthough when I built the deck it was only $2.85 m, I doubt if I could afford it now. www.advantagelumber.com/ipedecking.htm

opharbor

Common PT wood contains arsenic, I hope you're that for the framing only and not the table top.

PT does no longer contain arsenic. But I still wouldn't put food on it!

opharbor

I have seen composite used as a siding material but it does not have any structural intergrity. 

It also melts and stains very easily. Thought about it when building my deck but was cautioned away from it.

fairchase

Stike ,

Would you just answer the question I posed at the end of my hypothetical scenerio ?

Your talking in circles. I know pt is not a finish or a finish treatment , and I never refered to it as such.

 

stahlee

Is anybody using glue for any of the butt joints?