Marinade Technical Question

Theophan

I don't post often, but LOVE this site and read it very often. I've learned SO much here, and keep learning. I now have two BGEs, a Medium and a Large, and I'm having a ball.

I enjoy many different ethnic foods, and for some reason I had a hankering for shashlik, a Russian kebab, usually lamb, that I very dimly remember from a childhood visit to the Soviet Union, believe it or not. :ohmy: I found several recipes online, and wound up making two at once. Both had overnight marinades.

One was a recipe I think from southern Russia that had pomegranate juice (and garlic, shallot, and onion) in it, and the other was from Uzbekistan and was soda water, salt, and whole cumin and coriander seeds.

The result surprised me, and I want to ask for any thoughts from you experienced cooks. The Uzbeki person was insisting vehemently that one must NEVER use anything acidic in a marinade because it makes it tough, but the great majority of shashlik recipes I've found online call for either pomegranate juice, lemon, or vinegar.

Before cooking, the pomegranate-marinated meat (all of this is leg of lamb cut up) was gray after marinating, whereas the soda water/salt/spices meat was still red and attractive. After cooking, the pomegranate meat was a little sweet, but not tart, and surprisingly bland and just not very interesting. Worse, the texture of the meat seemed odd, somehow, almost mealy. The meat that had been marinated in soda water, salt and whole spices was just as tender, but somehow had a more natural and pleasant texture, and the flavor of the cumin and coriander was wonderful!

So my main question is about the marinating. Do you have thoughts about acidic marinades (tart fruit juices, lemon, vinegar, etc.)? I really was very surprised by not being so crazy about the pomegranate-marinated one. I thought it was going to be super, but aside from being a little sweet, there wasn't that much flavor. and the texture of the other one was a little nicer. Do you think it's the acidic fruit juice? Do you think it's the salt (no salt in the pomegranate one)? I know some people marinate beef in sour orange and other acidic things. I'm just puzzled about this.

Sorry this is so long. Here's a not very good iPhone photo of the finished product, still on the flexible "skewers":



Thanks!

Theo

Griffin

I'm thinking that maybe the one marinated in teh acid was too long a marinade. I think acidic marinades if left too long will start to break down the proteins and stuff in the meat. You might try it again with a shorter marinating time. Others will chime in who know more that I do, though.

jbenny

I agree with Griffin. If you're going to marinade something with acid (lemon, limes, etc.) it needs to be short. The acids start to "cook" the meat which is why it was gray after an overnight marinade. Keep this in mind, if you have ever had ceviche, that is how they cook the fish.

Cruezn

I'm with jbenny. Ceviche is cooked by the acids the fish is marinating in (and is wonderful too). Try a shorter time period.

Little Steven

Theo,

An acidic marinade works quickly. A saline marinade works more slowly. The acids will soften the muscle to the point it is mushy if it goes too long.

Steve

Desert Oasis Woman

Hi Theo,
Partied with a large group of Russians and other old Soviet Block Law Enforcement Officers about 6 years ago -- it was a very cold and rainy/sleety day in SE NM!!
Anyway, as the thin slices of beef were being grilled, they squeezed fresh pomegranite juice from the pomegranite over the meat! Delish!!!!
Your recipe sounded much more involved than any of their's.

Theophan

MANY thanks to all who replied! That's very helpful!

Both recipes said to marinate overnight, but I may have stumbled onto something by trying both recipes at the same time. I just divided the same pile of lamb pieces into two parts, used different marinades, did everything else the same.

I definitely think if I try a pomegranate marinade, or anything acidic, I'll follow all of your advice and make it just a few hours. The one in club soda, salt and spices seemed fine the way it was.

I also had a guy in a "world" grocery store, where I bought a bottle of pomegranate molasses, which isn't much like regular molasses except in thickness, and he said it's a wonderful glaze for many kinds of poultry and other meat. I might try just brushing some of that on some lamb sometime, maybe for the last 5 minutes or so.

Anyway, VERY helpful -- thanks again to all!

Theo

BGE Convert

Chiming in on this. Using acid in your marinade should be for shorter times. At most 2 to 3 hours. Some would say that is too long. As other posters pointed out this will break down the beef or chicken (i.e. denature the meat). The meat will lose it's elasticity (chewiness) and will have the texture of mush when eating it. Also, it will lose its beef flavor to a certain extent (depending on what cut you are using for the Kabobs). Which Kabobs tasted the best to you, keeping in mind that you want the marinade to accent the flavor profile of the beef?

Theophan

They were lamb, not beef. Leg of lamb that I cut up into chunks. I liked the Uzbeki version much better, to my surprise. I loved the cumin and coriander flavors. But after this discussion, I may try the other one with the pomegranate juice again, but just marinating a few hours.

As I've been thinking about this issue, though, and reading recipes, there are TONS of recipes for, say, London Broil as just one of many examples, where people are marinating overnight and with lots of acid in the marinade. Maybe with a big chunk of meat it's not as bad as with small chunks for kebabs.

I've also been thinking that probably in the "old countries," many of these recipes were probably used to soften up tough old mutton, not young, tender lamb, and that may be part of the issue as well. Maybe with modern lamb a short marinating just for flavor would make sense.