2-2-1 St. Louis Ribs Fail

ENOegg22

Now that i have your attention from the title, I have to admit it is slightly misleading.

I've made ribs using the 2-2-1 method a few times now, and have not been satisfied. Specifically, they're too tender. So tender that the bones fall out when you pick them up. I'm no KCBS purist, but I'd at least like to pick the ribs up and eat them with a little bite.

I don't have pictures, but when I've used this method I've gotten great flavor, pull back, and haven't had a dry rib yet, just too tender.

My setup is a large with platesetter, NO water pan, running at about 250 dome. The last time I made them I even did closer to 2-1-1, and had the same result.

So, anyone else have similar experience? If you don't wrap your ribs how long do you cook them for? Do you baste/mop them? Do you use a water pan?

Photo Egg

Check your dome temp guage and make sure it's accurate.
St. Louis will cook a little faster than baby backs.
Just keep cutting back your times till the ribs are how you like them.

pgprescott

Imo, an hour in foil is a long time. Others will likely disagree. 30 min max imo. I go no foil personally, but have done it in the past and it's a popular way to achieve certain flavor profiles. Keep tweeting and good luck. 

Photo Egg

You gave me a disagree?
what do you disagree about?

RRP

2-2-1? Not sure where you read that one. Even the popular CWM method is 3-1-1.5 and thats for thinner baby backs. That first 2 is too short IMHO and that second 2 in foil is way too long IMHO. As Darian suggested check your dome thermometer accuracy. Also since to me every pig seems to cook up differently I only use time as a reference point, but count on other methods to determine if my ribs are done.

SmokingPiney

Turbo - 350 indirect for a full rack, no water, no flip for about an hour 45 to two hours (looking for the meat to pull back from the bones a bit and passing the toothpick test to pull them). Add the wood chunks of your choice for smoke. Sauce about 20 minutes from pulling them.

Ever since I tried this, I will not go back to low and slow with ribs. With turbo, they come out moist with a little tug on the bite....and still bite cleanly (channeling my inner Myron Mixon  )

I don't like fall off the bone ribs - overdone to me. 

Theophan

I agree with @pgprescott that it's the foiling that makes your ribs too soft.  But @Photo Egg is also right that ultimately what matters isn't time, but cooking them however long (or short) it is until they're the way YOU like them.

Many people here don't foil at all (I'm one), but by all means if you like your 2-2-1 method but find the ribs too soft, try 2-1-1 instead, and use the "toothpick test" or the "bend test" to be sure whether they're done or not after that last hour.

And if 2-1-1 is still too soft, maybe try no foiling for a change, see how you like it.  Again, the bottom line is NOT time!  The bottom line is testing for yourself how tender the meat is.  If it's not soft enough, leave them on longer.  If they're soft enough, then regardless of the time, pull them off the smoker!

JRWhitee

I am not a fan of foil, I cook at 250-275 for 4.5 hours or so, when they pass the bend test its time to eat!

lousubcap

No foil here but go with the toothpick test for the win.  Insert into the thick rib meat-no resistance and they are done with a slight pull off the bone.  If you want fall-off-the -bone you have to cook longer or foil as you note.  FWIW-

saluki2007

No foil, no water pan. Use tooth pick test as lou described 

bgebrent

Photo Egg said:

You gave me a disagree?
what do you disagree about?

You are such a disagreeable forum member!  Guessing newbie fat fingers brother.  At least I hope so.

ENOegg22

RRP said:

2-2-1? Not sure where you read that one. Even the popular CWM method is 3-1-1.5 and thats for thinner baby backs. That first 2 is too short IMHO and that second 2 in foil is way too long IMHO. As Darian suggested check your dome thermometer accuracy. Also since to me every pig seems to cook up differently I only use time as a reference point, but count on other methods to determine if my ribs are done.

ENOegg22

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the advice, but I guess I was moreso trying to get feedback on the method than advice to modify the method. I'm not married to it. The 2-2-1 seems very popular online, and I just really don't like it so I was wondering if others had similar experiences.

I think my dome thermometer is fine and will probably try my next batch no wrap. I try not to wrap shoulders. I'll have to read up on the toothpick test, but ribs are a little more of an art IMO than other L&S meat because you can't just rely on a probe thermometer.

StillH2OEgger

One hour in foil hits the mark for us. Not sure if you have done this, but I know some people add a little liquid during the foil stage. I did once and did not care for it, but if you do that would also contribute to the texture you're trying to avoid.

Smokin_Trout

4 hours with platesetter at 250*. After 4 hours, sauce applied to the meat side. Twenty minutes later flip and sauce bone side, twenty minutes later sauce meat side again. Pull after 20 minutes. Total of 5 hours- no foil. You may have to adjust the first 4 hours depending on the ribs.

pgprescott

ENOegg22 said:

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the advice, but I guess I was moreso trying to get feedback on the method than advice to modify the method. I'm not married to it. The 2-2-1 seems very popular online, and I just really don't like it so I was wondering if others had similar experiences.

I think my dome thermometer is fine and will probably try my next batch no wrap. I try not to wrap shoulders. I'll have to read up on the toothpick test, but ribs are a little more of an art IMO than other L&S meat because you can't just rely on a probe thermometer.

That's a problem with online recipes and the egg, things cook faster in the egg due to a higher moisture level inside the egg and the low airflow environment. You just have to use the same or similar principles and adjust the timing on things. Remember you are virtually cooking in a ceramic vessel from the jump. Hey look at the bright side, you get to eat lots of ribs while dialing it in! 

ENOegg22

pgprescott said:

ENOegg22 said:

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the advice, but I guess I was moreso trying to get feedback on the method than advice to modify the method. I'm not married to it. The 2-2-1 seems very popular online, and I just really don't like it so I was wondering if others had similar experiences.

I think my dome thermometer is fine and will probably try my next batch no wrap. I try not to wrap shoulders. I'll have to read up on the toothpick test, but ribs are a little more of an art IMO than other L&S meat because you can't just rely on a probe thermometer.

That's a problem with online recipes and the egg, things cook faster in the egg due to a higher moisture level inside the egg and the low airflow environment. You just have to use the same or similar principles and adjust the timing on things. Remember you are virtually cooking in a ceramic vessel from the jump. Hey look at the bright side, you get to eat lots of ribs while dialing it in! 

I agree with you on the fact that translating recipes from the internet is not perfect. Everyone's equipment/ingredients are different. However, there is also a lot on this method specifically using the egg. 

ENOegg22

StillH2OEgger said:

One hour in foil hits the mark for us. Not sure if you have done this, but I know some people add a little liquid during the foil stage. I did once and did not care for it, but if you do that would also contribute to the texture you're trying to avoid.

Thanks for your input. I have to say I disagree though. Adding liquid will only make the problem worse. Liquid will steam the meat and break it down even more.

Photo Egg

ENOegg22 said:

StillH2OEgger said:

One hour in foil hits the mark for us. Not sure if you have done this, but I know some people add a little liquid during the foil stage. I did once and did not care for it, but if you do that would also contribute to the texture you're trying to avoid.

Thanks for your input. I have to say I disagree though. Adding liquid will only make the problem worse. Liquid will steam the meat and break it down even more.

Your problem is you don't even take the time to read the post you are disagreeing with...
@StillH2OEgger is saying he does NOT like adding liquid.
With your seeming experience, not sure why you even posted asking questions. 

THEBuckeye

SmokingPiney said:

Turbo - 350 indirect for a full rack, no water, no flip for about an hour 45 to two hours (looking for the meat to pull back from the bones a bit and passing the toothpick test to pull them). Add the wood chunks of your choice for smoke. Sauce about 20 minutes from pulling them.

Ever since I tried this, I will not go back to low and slow with ribs. With turbo, they come out moist with a little tug on the bite....and still bite cleanly (channeling my inner Myron Mixon  )

I don't like fall off the bone ribs - overdone to me. 

Ditto. Go Turbo or go home. 

ENOegg22

Photo Egg said:

ENOegg22 said:

StillH2OEgger said:

One hour in foil hits the mark for us. Not sure if you have done this, but I know some people add a little liquid during the foil stage. I did once and did not care for it, but if you do that would also contribute to the texture you're trying to avoid.

Thanks for your input. I have to say I disagree though. Adding liquid will only make the problem worse. Liquid will steam the meat and break it down even more.

Your problem is you don't even take the time to read the post you are disagreeing with...
@StillH2OEgger is saying he does NOT like adding liquid.
With your seeming experience, not sure why you even posted asking questions. 

Got it! My apologies. I did misread that. It's early. I don't completely understand your last sentence, but I think you're questioning the purpose of my original post...

it was NOT "I need to make the 2-2-1 method work, please help!". It was, "this 2-2-1 method seems very popular across different recipe sites, forums, etc. ive tried it and was disappointed, what does everyone else think about it? Or what method do you swear by?" Just trying to start a discussion on the topic.

Photo Egg

ENOegg22 said:

Photo Egg said:

ENOegg22 said:

StillH2OEgger said:

One hour in foil hits the mark for us. Not sure if you have done this, but I know some people add a little liquid during the foil stage. I did once and did not care for it, but if you do that would also contribute to the texture you're trying to avoid.

Thanks for your input. I have to say I disagree though. Adding liquid will only make the problem worse. Liquid will steam the meat and break it down even more.

Your problem is you don't even take the time to read the post you are disagreeing with...
@StillH2OEgger is saying he does NOT like adding liquid.
With your seeming experience, not sure why you even posted asking questions. 

Got it! My apologies. I did misread that. It's early. I don't completely understand your last sentence, but I think you're questioning the purpose of my original post...

it was NOT "I need to make the 2-2-1 method work, please help!". It was, "this 2-2-1 method seems very popular across different recipe sites, forums, etc. ive tried it and was disappointed, what does everyone else think about it? Or what method do you swear by?" Just trying to start a discussion on the topic.

Your right, you plugging people with "disagree" after you asked for their opinion and what works for them is the way to go.

fishlessman

just about everyone here has worked with that method and most dont use that method any more. what you really need to do with it is start checking about 45 minutes into the foil stage for doneness then check again every 10 to 15 minutes. if you know what to look for and get good at it its a good method for comps. i gave up with foil and just cook them indirect if im not going to watch them or cook them direct if i want to sit around and babysit them. theres no timing them. to be more consistent with a foil stage the meat side needs to be down, meat up cooks differently

ENOegg22

Photo Egg said:

ENOegg22 said:

Photo Egg said:

ENOegg22 said:

StillH2OEgger said:

One hour in foil hits the mark for us. Not sure if you have done this, but I know some people add a little liquid during the foil stage. I did once and did not care for it, but if you do that would also contribute to the texture you're trying to avoid.

Thanks for your input. I have to say I disagree though. Adding liquid will only make the problem worse. Liquid will steam the meat and break it down even more.

Your problem is you don't even take the time to read the post you are disagreeing with...
@StillH2OEgger is saying he does NOT like adding liquid.
With your seeming experience, not sure why you even posted asking questions. 

Got it! My apologies. I did misread that. It's early. I don't completely understand your last sentence, but I think you're questioning the purpose of my original post...

it was NOT "I need to make the 2-2-1 method work, please help!". It was, "this 2-2-1 method seems very popular across different recipe sites, forums, etc. ive tried it and was disappointed, what does everyone else think about it? Or what method do you swear by?" Just trying to start a discussion on the topic.

Your right, you plugging people with "disagree" after you asked for their opinion and what works for them is the way to go.

I'm not here to argue. I just looked back at your first response and saw that I "disagreed" with it. Must've been fat fingers on my phone. if I actually disagree I try to add a thoughtful response, not just click the button.

Legume

I really want to contribute but I've never tried 221 and would just end up telling you there are better ways but you're not looking for that.  There are lots of great ideas on the internet, like boiling brisket and making your own four cheese blend.

xfire_ATX

I hate mushy ribs but the rest of my family likes them.  I am more of a 3.-3.5 hr no foil no sauce and those will have a great "bite".  So now I put one rack aside for me and put theirs in foil with sauce for that last hour.

ENOegg22

Legume said:

I really want to contribute but I've never tried 221 and would just end up telling you there are better ways but you're not looking for that.  There are lots of great ideas on the internet, like boiling brisket and making your own four cheese blend.

Huh? I just said, I would like to know what other methods people use.

ENOegg22

xfire_ATX said:

I hate mushy ribs but the rest of my family likes them.  I am more of a 3.-3.5 hr no foil no sauce and those will have a great "bite".  So now I put one rack aside for me and put theirs in foil with sauce for that last hour.

I hear you. It's frustrating making something large like ribs, brisket, shoulder, or whole birds when people have different preferences.

Some people focus on tenderness. If it doesn't fall off the bone, they're not impressed, while others are obsessed with the technical side for competition. Neither is right or wrong.

I will probably start cooking them uncovered the whole way. Maybe baste/mop with something.

pgprescott

ENOegg22 said:

pgprescott said:

ENOegg22 said:

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the advice, but I guess I was moreso trying to get feedback on the method than advice to modify the method. I'm not married to it. The 2-2-1 seems very popular online, and I just really don't like it so I was wondering if others had similar experiences.

I think my dome thermometer is fine and will probably try my next batch no wrap. I try not to wrap shoulders. I'll have to read up on the toothpick test, but ribs are a little more of an art IMO than other L&S meat because you can't just rely on a probe thermometer.

That's a problem with online recipes and the egg, things cook faster in the egg due to a higher moisture level inside the egg and the low airflow environment. You just have to use the same or similar principles and adjust the timing on things. Remember you are virtually cooking in a ceramic vessel from the jump. Hey look at the bright side, you get to eat lots of ribs while dialing it in! 

I agree with you on the fact that translating recipes from the internet is not perfect. Everyone's equipment/ingredients are different. However, there is also a lot on this method specifically using the egg. 

Yeah, lots of variables including what one might consider "perfect". Keep at it and you will find what you like. Fwiw, I see the foil as a means to infuse that sweet flavor profile on your ribs. No need to leave them in there very long. When I did ribs that way I left them in maybe 1/2 hour and then finished them off out of the foil of course. It's just so hard to know what is going on in the foil and the ribs can go from perfect to just ok in literally a few minutes. Good luck. I find it easier to get ribs perfect without the foil. It leaves you a wider margin for error. The comp guys spend an enormous amount of time and money perfecting the foil method and even then the ribs sometimes rule the day. If you like ribs fall off the bone, foil is a no brainer. 

Foghorn

Yeah, I think the reason that 2-2-1 is popular on the internet is that "fall off the bone" is considered by many to be the mark of a great rib.  More discerning folks (meaning most on this forum) recognize that there is a range of "fall off the bone" - from "just barely fell off the bone and the meat texture is still pretty darn good" (at least in my opinion) to "fell off the bone a while ago and then got cooked a while longer and the meat is mushy".  As @pgprescott pointed out, when the ribs are in foil you can't really tell where you are on this spectrum.  I've found a good middle ground based on a competition recipe where I don't foil, but I spritz with apple juice every 30 minutes.  I shoot for "bites off the bone" and occasionally overshoot a little if the beverages are flowing - but the meat never goes all the way to "mushy" and everybody who eats them ends up happy. 

ENOegg22

Foghorn said:

Yeah, I think the reason that 2-2-1 is popular on the internet is that "fall off the bone" is considered by many to be the mark of a great rib.  More discerning folks (meaning most on this forum) recognize that there is a range of "fall off the bone" - from "just barely fell off the bone and the meat texture is still pretty darn good" (at least in my opinion) to "fell off the bone a while ago and then got cooked a while longer and the meat is mushy".  As @pgprescott pointed out, when the ribs are in foil you can't really tell where you are on this spectrum.  I've found a good middle ground based on a competition recipe where I don't foil, but I spritz with apple juice every 30 minutes.  I shoot for "bites off the bone" and occasionally overshoot a little if the beverages are flowing - but the meat never goes all the way to "mushy" and everybody who eats them ends up happy. 

I couldn't have said it better myself.