Question for left brainers

Nature Boy · March 2011

Okay, makin chili. So I cubed up a chuck roast and browned it in a dutch oven, added my chili puree, my broth to cover the meat. Now it's on the egg simmering with just enough heat to keep it bubbling for enough time to tenderize the meat and melt the collagen.

As we all know (even us right-brainers), the temp of the liquid around the beef is 212...since boiling water doesn't get higher unless it is under pressure. Logic says that even if you apply more heat (in this case lets say more rapidly boiling than "bubbling") the meat will still be cooking at 212 since it is immersed in the liquid.

Or...my mind wonders if you bump up the heat a bit, the meat will actually cook faster, even though the liquid itself never gets over 212. More energy is being applied. The entire dutch oven is hotter, and the air above the chili is hotter.

Whaddya think?
Cheers!
Chris

BobinFla · March 2011

YES! :woohoo:

FlaPoolman · March 2011

:blink: :huh: now I have a headache :laugh:

cookn biker · March 2011

I'm a right brained person. I do not believe that the higher the heat will cook the meat product faster.

Doug in Eggmonton · March 2011

I believe that the steam coming off the bottom in a vigorous boil will be well over 212 and may contribute to cooking to food faster.

Doug

stike · March 2011

You arent boiling water

fishlessman · March 2011

usually you simmer chili, its probably more like 190 in the pot. takes a lot of heat to boil water in an egg, never tried it but the fire would be big, you would be burning the chili

Fidel · March 2011

Only if you are cooking under pressure. Steam won't exceed 212* unless you have a pressure environment or there is no more liquid water present.

Nature Boy · March 2011

Okay. It's got some solids. I would assume that would raise the boiling temp a tad.

Fidel · March 2011

Actually, depending on what is in the liquid solution the boiling point can be raised substantially.

Adding salt to water can raise the boiling point about 1% for every tsp per quart, roughly.

Other items in the solution/suspension can raise the boiling point quite a bit.

Grandpas Grub · March 2011

Interesting question.

I have tried different methods other than pressre cooking and it always takes about 3 to 6 hours to get meat fork tender. On the large I have to cook about 350° dome to get a steady braise in the liquid. That is with pot roast or when doing chili beans and no beans.

GG

Nature Boy · March 2011

Let's forget the "water" thing, Stike brought up a good point. It wasn't exactly water. It was an onion, the beef, broth, chilies and water. At 300 dome, even with the collagen breakdown going on, the whole pot was just bubbling happily.

Say I ramp it to 500? Does more energy get transferred to the meat itself?

Chris

Nature Boy · March 2011

1% is not substantial.

fishlessman · March 2011

it will where ever the meat is touching the pot, whatever the liquid is there would be a point it wont get hotter. you can burn spaghetti to the bottom of a pot of boiling salted water

lowercasebill · March 2011

the temp of the liquid at the bottom of the pot will be the hottest and boil that liquid [hence the little bubbles from the bottom of the pot].. at a simmer the rest of the liquid will be at a lower temp at a rolling boil more of the liquid will be hotter,, the increased amount of btu's going around the meat will cook it faster,, but you will boil off the liquid faster and may meed to add more. how much faster???? maybe a chem major or physics major will weigh in about the amount of energy needed for the phase change,, that's my story and i am sticking to it .. more wine please

Mainegg · March 2011

HUH??? :pinch: :huh: :ermm: :blink: you lost me at little bubbles from the bottom of the pot

Fidel · March 2011

Agreed, but that was simply an example. My guess is that you have a lot more than 1tsp of "stuff" in there per quart of water. How much each of those ingredients affects the boiling point would require a whole lot more research than the answer is worth.

But in theory the whole pot should be at roughly the same temperature without regard to the temperature in the egg as long as there is liquid present. You could test it out. Find out at what temperature the chili simmers, then bump the egg 50 or 100* and see if the temp of the chili is the same. It should be unless the liquid has evaporated away.

Mainegg · March 2011

That is it?? that is all you have Stike??? 4 words... have you ever done such a short post on something you could write volumes on I am sure??

Richard Fl · March 2011

I have found that cooking at a temp higher that 250 or so the liquid boils off faster and the entire dish gets thicker and more flavor concentrated. JMHO.

http://www.eggheadforum.com/index.php?option=com_simpleboard&func=view&id=652863&catid=1

Canugghead · March 2011

Chris, I can't explain why but I guess it's for the same reason low setting on a slow cooker (crockpot) takes longer.
Gary

Wise One · March 2011

OK - let's get with the facts.
1. The boiling temperature will be slightly higher due to "stuff" being in the water.
2. Anything completely submerged in this liquid will cook at that temperature.
3. Anything that "pokes its head out" of the liquid could cook at a higher temperature.
4. Anything in contact with the sides of the pot could cook at a higher temperature.
5. Your chili will taste good no matter what.

Nature Boy · March 2011

Yes, that's moisture loss. No doubt there is more of that at a fast boil. Different than what I am askin.
Beers!
Chris

Nature Boy · March 2011

LOL! That was good Bill.

Wonder if the temperature of the air in the bubbles can be higher that the liquid?

Yep, the chili was good!
Cheers.
Chris

Nature Boy · March 2011

Thanks yall!

stike · March 2011

if i'm gonna get grief for all my posts, i might as well makem short :laugh:

srq2625 · March 2011

I am left-brained and my under-grad is Chemistry so ....

First, reference the following (and azeotrope distilation)

Azeotrope - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope

and

Azeotropic distillation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotropic_distillation

What is clear from this is that adding some substances (usually other liquids) will lower the boiling point of the solution (one liquid can disolve into another).

Second, there are some substances, when added to a solution (or to create a solution) will increase the boiling point of the solvent.

Due to the number of variables involved, it is nearly impossible to arrive at a 100% certain conclusion using the Socratic method (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method) most often found in forum posts.

To my mind, the only way to make a, more or less certain, determination is to actually conduct an expiment.

But, aside from having fun while doing it (if one can call such an experiment fun and not all will), why bother. Just cook the food for as long as it takes and enjoy it!

And that's my position and I'm sticking to it! :laugh:

Boilermaker Ben · March 2011

Easy answer: don't boil your chili anyway. It's a braise. Boiled meat = dry/tough. I cringe when I see people refer to corned beef as a "boiled dinner". Technically your chili is "done" when it the meat comes up to temp, but I wouldn't want to eat it. Similarly, you can boil the heck out of it to thicken the sauce quickly, but again, I wouldn't want to eat it.
Low 'n slow, that is the tempo. - it's good for barbecue, it's good for stews, it's good for beastie boys songs.

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