Rub/Sauce Question

satkinson · July 2009

I've been egging for about five years and I consider myself a good rib cooker (less luck with briskets). I have a question that's been puzzling me though.

Most rib directions suggest not putting any basting sauce on the ribs until the last 15 minutes or so to prevent over-caramelization of the sugars and the subsequent burnt taste. However, almost all rubs I have used and come up with have sugar in them. Is there a contradiction here? Is it because you go from indirect to direct heat (at least I do). Does anyone on the forum advocate sugar-free rubs?

Richard Fl · July 2009

This is one a friend of mine gave me many years ago. It is his restaurant rub after 20+ years.

Rub, Jimmy Joe

INGREDIENTS:
10 Ozs Red Pepper Flakes, Fine Ground
3 Ozs. Salt, Fine
3 Ozs. Black Pepper, Fine

1 Procedure:
2 Mix all together.

Recipe Type
Rub/Seasoning/Spice

Recipe Source
Source: Jimmy Joe's BBQ, Jimmy Brooks, 2007/02/02

satkinson · July 2009

Richard,
Thanks. That sounds like a hella-hot rub! I'll try a bit on a spare rib and see if my hair catches on fire before I risk a whole rack. I'm a fan of paprika as the "reddening" agent, but I'll give it a shot.

Celtic Wolf · July 2009

I don't see a contradiction here.

If you put any BBQ sauce on your ribs prior to the last 15-20 minutes you risk burning the sugars in the sauce.

satkinson · July 2009

Celtic,
So you don't worry about sugars in the rub? I guess that's my question. Why worry about sugars in the sauce burning and then use a rub that contains sugars? My favorite no-sugar rub is:

5 Tbls smoked paprika
2 tsp smoked salt
2 tsp onion powder
1 tsp garlic powder
1 tsp black pepper
1 tsp white pepper
1 tsp cayenne

But I make another rub that has a lot of brown sugar in it.

Richard Fl · July 2009

use half pepper and half paprika.

Celtic Wolf · July 2009

There is a whole lot more sugar in the sauce and it's partly cooked already. Plus most of us use Turbinado Sugar in our rubs. Turbinado has a somewhat higher burn point.

So no I don't worry about it.

Fidel · July 2009

Celtic Wolf wrote:

Turbinado has a somewhat higher burn point.

Reference?

I've heard this statement many times, but have been unable to find any data to support it.

GriffinGaDawg · July 2009

try cooking a pan of white sugar and a pan of turbo sugar and see which burns first. If you have a kid, it could be his sixth grade science fair project. :laugh:

Fidel · July 2009

Too many uncontrolled variables in your suggested experiment, and you would be testing conductive properties of the different types of sugar in addition.

fishlessman · July 2009

from what i see the sugar burns around 350. going inderect you dont have a problem with the sugar in the rub, changing the setup to direct with your sauce will be alot hotter on the added sauce.

satkinson · July 2009

fishless,

That was my initial hypothesis re the direct/indirect issue. Then I thought, well, I'm going direct, but the temp doesn't rise unless it is true that the dome can read 250 or so and the gill can read 350+. Not sure if this is so, but I doubt a 100 degree variance in such a small space. Time to experiment!

satkinson · July 2009

Ok. Here's my new hypothesis. The whole "burnt sugar" guidance, even including basting too early, is rooted in the lore of gassers and webbers who had less control over their temperature. If you have an egg, you can manage the temp to the point where worrying about sugar burning is a non-issue, and it boils down to how sweet you like your ribs. Therefore, I propose that it is possible to baste ribs on the egg as early as you like (pending proof that if the dome reads 250F or so, the grill cannot be at 350F).

stike · July 2009

i have been asking this frikkin question forever. the only place it is ever asserted is on a bbq forum somewhere. hahaha

turbinado is 99.99% sucrose, and table (refined white) sugar is 100%.

i'm pretty sure, based on my rudimentary understanding on nothing in general, that the more impurites (turbinado being less pure) the more likely it is to burn at LOWER temps.

even so, if it burned at a higher temp, that difference would likely be negligible.

this is the kinda stuff i love to say "wait, hold on here..." about. just because we've been told something over and over, it doesn't make it true.

i too would love to see actual info supporting the claim. if it's true (and i can't imagine it is), the difference must be minor

if you really want to start a flame war, ask the dudes who warn about salting meat why they have no qualms about sugar. sugar sucks out way more water from BBQ than salt ever could, given the amounts of both which are used. sugar is, i believe, even more hygroscopic than salt. especially when folks are using CUPS of sugar to TBSPs of salt

satkinson · July 2009

Stike,

Yeah. I thought the same thing about sugar. Bottom line is that I'm using none of it for overnight rubs and marinades and being fearless with it in the sauces (if I care to). It seems simple science was overrun by rumor. I may be wrong.

satkinson · July 2009

Where's Alton Brown or a food scientist when you need one?

stike · July 2009

i use it overnight on rubs. whatever juice is in the bowl goes into my sauce. it really isn't possible to dry out meats by coating them in sugar or salt. ...not overnight anyway.

the reason those kinds of "rumors" (myths?) stick around is because they sound like they are logical, and they are usually passed on by a reasonable source.

and since it takes effort to debunk stuff, it rarely gets tested (by us, i mean). you are right, simple food scientist will have the answer.

satkinson · July 2009

Stike,

I think you are right. Relatively small amounts of sugar or salt are not likely to draw significant amounts of moisture our of meat overnight, although again, we need a food scientist on this one. I'll try to do some research on this tonight. And while I don't baste until late in the cook anyway, because I am not a fan of too sweet, I have high confidence that we have busted the myth about burnt sugars...at least if you are an egger.

stike · July 2009

the final nail in the coffin for salt drying out food (people often say not to use it in a rub overnight because it'll dry the meat out) was burying duck breasts in salt overnight to make prosciutto. they lose some water, but even after air drying for a week they are moist.

they only thing that makes pork dry is overcooking it (or low-quality pork..)

in time the non-believers will come around!
hahaha

satkinson · July 2009

Yeah. Pork brining. Hello?

satkinson · July 2009

Well..after reasonably dedicated research, I can't find anything suggesting turbinado and plain sugar burn at different temperatures. They probably do, but I don't think that if you are doing ribs around 250F that you face a problem. This is probably just a taste preference.

So, until a food scientist comes along and says otherwise, I'm going to say that the sugar content of rubs or sauce is a matter of taste and not science.

Buxwheat · July 2009

stike wrote:

i'm pretty sure, based on my rudimentary understanding on nothing in general, that the more impurites (turbinado being less pure) the more likely it is to burn at LOWER temps...
even so, if it burned at a higher temp, that difference would likely be negligible.

Right you are as usual, Stike!
"Melting point analysis can also provide information about the purity of a sample. A substance containing impurities usually melts at a lower temperature than the pure compound, and melts over a wide range of temperatures. In general, the smaller the range of melting temperatures, the higher the purity of the sample." This comes from the following LINKY. When I took orgasmic chemistry, we would have to determine the melting point of any compound we made as well as calculating % yield. The higher the yield and the closer to the actual melting point of the compound, the higher the grade for that lab.

Buxwheat · July 2009

As long as we are talking about sugar, the turbinado sugar marketed as Sugar in the Raw is a misnomer. You can't sell unprocessed sugar. Those big piles of the sugar at refineries are full of bugs and other stuff. It has to be refined to kill all the bad stuff in it. Not sure how turbinado is made, but apparently the molasses is some how removed, refined, and added back to the sugar.

Rub/Sauce Question

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