Gasket Update

safetyman · January 2009

Well I got ahold of Bruce and have him sending a Nomex gasket. He suggested using the 3M-77 instead of the Permatex Copper. I called the 3M company and they said that the 77 was only good to about 250 degrees. They suggested to use the 3M Ultra Pro silicone gasket glue, that is is good to 600 degrees the same temperature as the Permatex Copper. Am I missing something here, why would most Eggers use 77 when there is a more heat resistant product that comes in a tube and is easier to apply?

stike · January 2009

well, for one thing, your gasket isn't going to get to 600 degrees. but i'd imagine it does get over 250.

super77 isn't a miracle substance that fell to earth from space, it's merely rubber cement thinned-out and capable of being sprayed with a propellant. after it cures i imagine it can maybe melt a bit in use (when the rim gets hot), and soften, but then cool back to solid latex.

guessing a little further, i'm thinking that maybe BGE wants folks to use the super77 because once the volatile stuff is gone, you have a natural product. latex is non-toxic (unless you choke on it, i guess).

and though the permatex holds like iron, it's likely not certified or specifically tested for use around food. it might be totally safe to do so, but if it's not tested for it, the prudent thing for manufacturers is to say it's not recommended.

super77 might not specifically have been tested either, but it IS a known entity, and they maybe feel safer recommending latex over the silicone gasket stuff.

i have to qualify all this by saying i have a rutland and a permatex on the large, and a good old, still adhered felt gasket on the small

Weekend Warrior · January 2009

Dozens of us by now I imagine have used the Super 77 spray to adhere our gaskets and I am not aware of a single issue with it. Just remember that what you put on may have to come off someday and the Super 77 is a micro-thin film of adhesive. Food for thought. Mark

Fidel · January 2009

The silicone adhesives are just silicone in an acetic acid (vinegar) delivery. As the acetic acid evaporates it leaves behind the silicone. Yes there are other trace compounds, but for the most part, like ivory soap, it is pure.

The MSDS for a well known gasket sealant states the following:

"DIRECT CONTACT MAY CAUSE EYE/SKIN IRRITATION. INHALATION MAY IRRITATE
MUCOUS MEMBRANES. INGESTION OF LARGE AMOUNTS MAY CAUSE DIGESTIVE
DISCOMFORT."

If you somehow manage to ingest large amounts of an adhesive that is under a gasket on your cooker then I think you are doing something wrong.

The 3m Super 77, on the other hand, contains such nice things as 2-Methylpentane, cyclohexane, 3-methylpentane, 2,2-dimethylbutane, hexane, etc. Non-volatile components are only 20-30% by volume. The MSDS states:

Skin Contact:
Prolonged or repeated exposure may cause: Mild Skin Irritation: Signs/symptoms may include localized redness, swelling, and itching.
Inhalation:
Intentional concentration and inhalation may be harmful or fatal.

Respiratory Tract Irritation: Signs/symptoms may include cough, sneezing, nasal discharge, headache, hoarseness, and nose and throat pain.
May be absorbed following inhalation and cause target organ effects.

Ingestion:
Gastrointestinal Irritation: Signs/symptoms may include abdominal pain, stomach upset, nausea, vomiting and diarrhea.
May be absorbed following ingestion and cause target organ effects.

Target Organ Effects:
Central Nervous System (CNS) Depression: Signs/symptoms may include headache, dizziness, drowsiness, incoordination, nausea, slowed reaction time, slurred speech, giddiness, and unconsciousness.
Prolonged or repeated exposure may cause: Peripheral Neuropathy: Signs/symptoms may include tingling or numbness of the extremities, incoordination, weakness of the hands and feet, tremors and muscle atrophy.
Contains a chemical or chemicals which can cause birth defects or other reproductive harm.

You can do more research, but use wisely your power of choice.

stike · January 2009

FWIW, the hexanes, butanes, etc. in the super77 those are volatile propellants, and are long gone when the adhesive dries and cures.

just to be a total dinkus about it (not to you, fidel, but to any naysayers among us) i still maintain that there is nothing that creates more dangerous fumes than the charcoal itself. any talk of adhesive fumes, galvy fumes, aluminum foil fumes, copper fumes, etc. etc. in the egg are overblown, in my cut-and-dry view of things.

jeffinsgf · January 2009

This may be completely different for the Nomex gasket, but personally for the traditional felt gasket I don't want an Armageddon bond. I know that it is going to be replaced every few years, and I don't want a half day job removing the old one.

It seems that the biggest mistake you can make installing a gasket is stretching the material while installing. I lost a gasket on a brand new large a couple months ago. After a few low temperature cooks, it started shrinking and pulling off. On the replacement gasket I was careful not to stretch and it held up just fine.

I don't think the adhesive needs to be all that outstanding, because if the gasket is installed correctly (not stretched), it just isn't going to have much trying to displace it. The pressure is always straight down (and up), not shear.

Fidel · January 2009

I realize all that you said regarding the Super77, but there is still initial exposure to all those chemicals as opposed to vinegar, which was my obviously poorly illustrated point.

Given the choice between a spoonful of silicone gasket goop and super77 I'd eat the silicone.

Quit being a dinkus.

safetyman · January 2009

Rod you should be a Safety person. I just got done down loading the MSDS sheets for both products. I was curious as to why most people didn't use silicone, it is used around the house for all kinds of things. I don't think it would be very hard to remove, if the new gasket fails. Mine was good till all of a sudden it came off as though the glue didn't hold, the gasket itself is like brand new. Anyways thanks to all for the response.

stike · January 2009

gotcha.

hell. i (we, at the old office, ca. 1995) have used super77 in enclosed rooms to spraymount 24x36 drawings, 12 at a time.

hahaha

the biggest issue is that your nose hairs stick together and the overspray sticks to your arm hair.

that and you forget how to walk until the fumes clear.

Haggis · January 2009

And at one time in my life I worked in an plant producing asbestos-cement products. I carried 80 pound bags of asbestos on my shoulders to a storage room, often slipped off to take naps on top of the bags, and dumped the bags into a huge mix master where they were combined with the cement for extruded products. Its now 35 years later and I still haven't died of whatever horrible and fatal lung disease is caused by asbestos . . . Maybe someday but time is getting short anyway.

Similarly I just shake my head when schools are evacuated for days and million dollar cleanups are conducted because some kid drops some mercury on the floor. I'm sure I'm not the only one who used to play with mercury removed from old silent switches or thermometers, pushing it around the table top, onto the floor, and recombining it like the guy in Terminator Two.

stike · January 2009

my dad used to play with mercury too. at work. got some in his gold wedding band and had to buff it off.

vinyl siding will be "hazardous material" in maybe fifteen, twenty years. just watch. it's already starting. pink fiberglass insulation, too.

i always find it funny that folks are cooking high-fat meat and worried about fumes from gasket adhesive

Fidel · January 2009

I can remember being in high school and college chem labs and playing with mercury, rolling it around in our hands - idiots basically.

We also used to sprinkle silver nitrate everywhere to turn people purple and mold sodium or potassium chunks under the rim of the toilet or in the drain of the drinking fountains.

Haggis - i have a good friend who got very wealthy doing asbestos litigation work. It really has proven out to be some dangerous stuff. I certainly hope your exposure didn't compromise your health.

davewolfs · January 2009

I'm not sure about the silicone product.

Read this:

http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediawebserver?777777P7R_iCQ9bayE9T7cc_JFI7o9WVc&W7RaH--

Hazardous Polymerization: Hazardous polymerization will not occur.
Additional Information: Product evolves methyl alcohol and methyl ethyl ketoxime when exposed to water or humid air. When
heated to temperatures above 150 deg C (302 deg F), product can form formaldehyde vapors.

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/risk/formaldehyde

# Can formaldehyde cause cancer?

Although the short-term health effects of formaldehyde exposure are well known, less is known about its potential long-term health effects. In 1980, laboratory studies showed that exposure to formaldehyde could cause nasal cancer in rats. This finding raised the question of whether formaldehyde exposure could also cause cancer in humans. In 1987, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) classified formaldehyde as a probable human carcinogen under conditions of unusually high or prolonged exposure (1). Since that time, some studies of industrial workers have suggested that formaldehyde exposure is associated with nasal cancer and nasopharyngeal cancer, and possibly with leukemia. In 1995, the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) concluded that formaldehyde is a probable human carcinogen. However, in a reevaluation of existing data in June 2004, the IARC reclassified formaldehyde as a known human carcinogen (2).

Fidel · January 2009

The grainger products MSDS do not list the same warning or ingredients as the 3M products.

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET

DATE: 09/13/07

REV.: 4

SECTION 1

PACER TECHNOLOGY
9420 SANTA ANITA AVENUE
RANCHO CUCAMONGA, CA 91730

FOR CHEMICAL EMERGENCY ONLY:
IN THE US & CANADA: (800) 424-9300
INT'L & WASH DC (COLLECT): (703) 527-3887
TELEPHONE FOR INFORMATION: (909) 987-0550

PRODUCT IDENTIFICATION: RED HI-TEMP RTV SILICONE INSTANT GASKET

HAZARD RATING:
2
1
0
X

SECTION 2 - HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS INFORMATION

HAZARDOUS COMPONENTS OSHA PEL ACGIH TLV OTHER % OPTION
(COMMON NAMES, CAS NUMBER) LIMITS

METHYLTRIACETOXYSILANE * * 2
(4253-34-3)

ETHYLTRIACETOXYSILANE * * 2
(1768-977-9)

SILICA, AMORPHOUS 6 MG/M3 10 MG/M3 10
(7631-86-9) (TOTAL DUST)

*OBSERVE LIMITS FOR ACETIC ACID, FORMED DURING CURING ON EXPOSURE TO WATER
OR HUMID AIR.

OSHA PEL:
TWA: 10 PPM.

ACGIH TLV:
TWA: 10 PPM
STEL: 15 PPM.

SECTION 3 - PHYSICAL/CHEMICAL CHARACTERISTICS

BOILING POINT: NA

SPECIFIC GRAVITY (H2O = 1): 1.04

VAPOR DENSITY (AIR = 1): >1

MELTING POINT: NA

VAPOR PRESSURE (MMHg): 250 F (COC)

FLAMMABLE LIMITS:
LEL: NE
UEL: NE

EXTINGUISHING MEDIA: DRY CHEMICAL, FOAM OR CARBON DIOXIDE.

SPECIAL FIRE FIGHTING PROCEDURES:
FIREFIGHTERS SHOULD WEAR SELF-CONTAINED BREATHING APPARATUS.

UNUSUAL FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARDS: NONE KNOWN.

SECTION 5 - REACTIVITY DATA

STABILITY:
STABLE (XX)

CONDITIONS TO AVOID: EXPOSURE TO AIR/MOISTURE PRIOR TO USE.

INCOMPATIBILITY (MATERIALS TO AVOID):
OXIDIZING MATERIAL; AIR OR MOISTURE CAUSE CURING WITH ACETIC ACID VAPORS
BEING FORMED.

HAZARDOUS DECOMPOSITION PRODUCTS:
SILICON DIOXIDE, CARBON DIOXIDE, TRACES OF INCOMPLETELY BURNED CARBON
PRODUCTS.

HAZARDOUS POLYMERIZATION:
MAY NOT OCCUR (XX)

SECTION 6 - HEALTH HAZARD DATA

ROUTE(S) OF ENTRY:
INHALATION: YES
SKIN: YES
INGESTION: YES

HEALTH HAZARDS (ACUTE AND CHRONIC):

ACUTE:
DIRECT CONTACT MAY CAUSE EYE/SKIN IRRITATION. INHALATION MAY IRRITATE
MUCOUS MEMBRANES. INGESTION OF LARGE AMOUNTS MAY CAUSE DIGESTIVE
DISCOMFORT.

CHRONIC:
REPEATED OR PROLONGED CONTACT (24-48HR) MAY CAUSE MODERATE SKIN IRRITATION.

CARCINOGENICITY:
NTP: NO
IARC MONOGRAPHS: NO
OSHA REGULATED: NO

FIRST AID PROCEDURES:

EYE CONTACT:
IMMEDIATELY FLUSH EYE WITH COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF WATER FOR 15 MINUTES.

SKIN CONTACT:
IRRITATION UPON DIRECT CONTACT. REMOVE CONTAMINATED CLOTHING AND WASH
AFFECTED AREAS WITH SOAP AND WATER. PROLONGED OR REPEATED CONTACT CAN CAUSE
DERMATITIS IN SENSITIVE INDIVIDUALS.

INHALATION:
REMOVE TO FRESH AIR. GET MEDICAL ATTENTION IF ILL EFFECTS PERSIST.

INGESTION:
NO FIRST AID SHOULD BE NECESSARY, HOWEVER, CONSULT WITH A PHYSICIAN AS A
PRECAUTION.

MEDICAL CONDITIONS GENERALLY AGGRAVATED BY EXPOSURE:
PRE-EXISTING SKIN AND RESPIRATORY CONDITIONS.

SECTION 7 - PRECAUTIONS FOR SAFE HANDLING AND USE

STEPS TO BE TAKEN IN CASE MATERIAL IS RELEASED OR SPILLED:
MATERIAL CAN BE POLYMERIZED WITH WATER. SCRAPE UP CURED RESIDUE AND PLACE
INTO CONTAINER FOR DISPOSAL.

WASTE DISPOSAL METHOD:
DISPOSE OF IN ACCORDANCE WITH LOCAL, STATE, AND FEDERAL EPA REGULATIONS.

PRECAUTIONS TO BE TAKEN IN HANDLING AND STORING:
USE WITH ADEQUATE VENTILATION. STORE BELOW 90F/32C. USE REASONABLE CARE AND
CAUTION. RECOMMENDED USE IS AT AMBIENT TEMPERATURE (68-72 F).

OTHER PRECAUTIONS:
AVOID DIRECT CONTACT AND AVOID BREATHING VAPORS. TRACES OF FORMALDEHYDE MAY
FORM IF HEATED IN AIR ABOVE 300 F (149C). PROVIDE VENTILATION DURING USE TO
CONTROL ACETIC ACID EXPOSURE WITHIN 10 PPM OR USE RESPIRATORY PROTECTION.

SECTION 8 - CONTROL MEASURES

RESPIRATORY PROTECTION (SPECIFY TYPE):
A NIOSH APPROVED VAPOR CANISTER MAY BE USED TO MAINTAIN VAPOR CONCENTRATION
BELOW TLV.

VENTILATION:
LOCAL EXHAUST: TO MAINTAIN VAPOR CONCENTRATION BELOW TLV.
MECHANICAL (GENERAL): AS NEEDED.

PROTECTIVE CLOTHING OR EQUIPMENT:
SAFETY GLASSES/GOGGLES WITH SIDE SHIELDS, RUBBER GLOVES AND APRON TO
PROTECT SKIN AND CLOTHING.

WORK/HYGIENIC PRACTICES:
WASH HANDS WITH SOAP AND WATER AFTER USE. LAUNDER CONTAMINATED CLOTHING
BEFORE REUSE.

SECTION 9 - TRANSPORT

NOT SUBJECT TO DOT, IMDG CODE OR IATA REGULATIONS.

NE = NOT ESTABLISHED

THE DATA CONTAINED HEREIN IS BASED UPON INFORMATION THAT PACER TECHNOLOGY
BELIEVES TO BE RELIABLE. USERS OF THIS PRODUCT HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO
DETERMINE THE SUITABILITY OF USE AND TO ADOPT ALL NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS TO
ENSURE THE SAFETY AND PROTECTION OF PROPERTY AND PERSONS INVOLVED IN SAID
USE. ALL STATEMENTS OR SUGGESTIONS ARE MADE WITHOUT WARRANTY, EXPRESS OR
IMPLIED, REGARDING ACCURACY OF THE INFORMATION, THE HAZARDS CONNECTED WITH
THE USE OF THE MATERIAL OR THE RESULTS TO BE OBTAINED FROM THE USE THEREOF.

stike · January 2009

which formulation of silicone is this for?

anyway, once again i'm going to assert that the very act of lighting the charcoal produces fumes which present an IMMEDIATE health concern.

being that we use the egg in open air, with excellent ventilation, and we are not dying from CO inhalation (produced in copious amounts, far more than any silicone or other fumes), i'd be willing to wager we're safe with silicone adhesive. it never gets to the temps where it burns anyway. the ceramic dome and lower shell (rims especially) of the egg do not reach dome temps, let alone lump temps.

stike · January 2009

every single thing is dangerous when viewed on an MSDS sheet. even dihydrogen monoxide, one of the most common and most deadly 'materials' on the face of the earth

davewolfs · January 2009

stike wrote:

every single thing is dangerous when viewed on an MSDS sheet. even dihydrogen monoxide, one of the most common and most deadly 'materials' on the face of the earth

As they say, ignorance is bliss. It is clearly stated that these glues can form formaldehyde vapors which is a known carcinogen. So why bother dealing with it?

The data sheet for the silicone you posted states the same warnings.

http://supergluemsds.com/Docs/Red Hi-Temp RTV Silicone, Rev 4 - 2008.pdf

Other Precautions: Avoid direct contact and avoid breathing vapors. Traces of formaldehyde may
form if heated in air above 300 F (149C). Provide ventilation during use to control acetic acid
exposure within 10ppm or use respiratory protection.

I will stick with Super 77.

AZRP · January 2009

The msds sheet for the hand soap at work states you should wear gloves when handling the product. -RP

stike · January 2009

because they are safe when used properly.

the knife you cook with is more dangerous than those formaldehyde vapors. you've been living with formaldehyde vapors for years (carpets, veneers, etc.).

notwithstanding the fact that they go away when used in a ventilated area.

again... after the vapors clear (said vapors being less dangerous than the CO which you create every time you cook, as i've said for the hundredth time). your kitchen knife, and car, however, are dangerous every single time you use them, and far more likely to hurt you.

anyone can find a reason to be afraid of something. i agree that ignorance is bliss, but sometimes ignorance is disguised as intelligence.

the SUN is a known carcinogen, for crying out loud.

don't hunker in your bunker....

AZRP · January 2009

"it never gets to the temps where it burns anyway." :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: -RP

Fidel · January 2009

That MSDS you just posted even states you can EAT the stuff right out of the tube and no first aid should be necessary.

If (and that is a BIG if) it happens to produce formaldehyde - what are the chances that you would be standing directly over the stuff and suck enough into your lungs that it would be an issue?

Do you not remember 8th grade biology and smelling formaldehyde all the time? Cutting frogs, worms, pigs, organs......

I have to (reluctantly) agree with stike, carbon monoxide is a far greater exposure risk than potential formaldehyde in this instance.

davewolfs · January 2009

Fidel wrote:

That MSDS you just posted even states you can EAT the stuff right out of the tube and no first aid should be necessary.

If (and that is a BIG if) it happens to produce formaldehyde - what are the chances that you would be standing directly over the stuff and suck enough into your lungs that it would be an issue?

Do you not remember 8th grade biology and smelling formaldehyde all the time? Cutting frogs, worms, pigs, organs......

I have to (reluctantly) agree with stike, carbon monoxide is a far greater exposure risk than potential formaldehyde in this instance.

I don't remember playing with formaldehyde, but I do remember playing with Mercury

stike · January 2009

people refuse to see that they are simply cherry picking, and trying to guess what is more dangerous. producing a MSDS gives them a feeling of "proof", but it does not prove a damn thing, as you said re: soap.

here's an (edited) interesting material safety data sheet for a common household substance, hydric acid

for years, mothers have thinned baby formula with this, and there are rarely any problems as a result

III. PHYSICAL DATA

Boiling point (760 mm Hg): 100oC (212oF)
Melting point: 0oC (32oF)
Specific gravity (H2O = 1):1
Vapor pressure - 100oC (212oF) 760 mm Hg
- 0oC (32oF) 17.5 mm Hg
Solubility in water (% by wt.): 100%
% Volatiles by volume: 100%
Evap. rate (Butyl acetate = 1): Not available
Appearance and Odor:Clear liquid; No odor

IV. FIRE & EXPLOSION DATA

Unusual Fire and Explosion Hazard: Rapid temperature rise of liquid can result in explosive vaporization, particularly if in a sealed container.

V. HEALTH HAZARD INFORMATION

Routes of Exposure and Effects of Overexposure

Inhalation
Acute over exposure: Inhalation can result in asphyxiation and is often fatal.
Chronic overexposure: Chronic inhalation overexposure not encountered.

Skin Contact
Acute overexposure: Prolonged but constant contact with liquid may cause a mild dermatitis.
Chronic overexposure: Mild to severe dermatitis.

Skin Absorption
Acute overexposure: Readily absorbed. No effects noted.
Chronic overexposure: short-term deformation of skin

Eye Contact
Acute overexposure: No effects noted.
Chronic overexposure: potential irritatant

Ingestion
Acute overexposure: Excessive ingestion of liquid form can cause gastric distress and mild diarrhea. Death
Chronic overexposure:Death

Emergency and First Aid Procedures
Eyes: None
Skin: None
Inhalation: Remove to fresh air; Provide artificial respiration; Provide oxygen.
Ingestion: None

VI. REACTIVITY DATA

Conditions contributing to instability: Exposure to direct current electricity.

Incompatibility: Strong acids and bases can cause rapid heating. Reaction with sodium metal can result in explosion.

Hazardous decomposition products: Hydrogen - Explosive gas Oxygen - Supports rapid combustion

Conditions contributing to hazardous polymerization: None

VII. SPILL or LEAK PROCEDURES

Steps to be taken if material is released or spilled:
Small quantities can be mopped or wiped up with rags.
Large quantities should be directed to collecting basin or drain with dikes or swabs.

Neutralizing chemicals
None required.

Waste disposal method:
Process contaminated material through treatment plant prior to discharge into environment. Discharge permit may be required.

VIII. SPECIAL PROTECTION INFORMATION

Ventilation requirements:
Remove hot vapor from environment using local exhaust systems.

Specific personal protective equipment:
Respiratory: Self-contained breathing apparatus when danger of prolonged submersion
Eyes: Goggles or full face splash shield when dealing with hot liquid.
Hands: Use insulating gloves when extensive exposure to solid state or high temperature liquid state is contemplated.
Other clothing and equipment: Use heat protective garment when exposed to large quantities of heated vapor.

IX. SPECIAL PRECAUTIONS

Precautionary statements:
Compound readily exists in all three phases at atmospheric pressure. Phase changes occur over a narrow (100oC/212oF) temperature range.
Compound is a universal solvent and dissolves most common materials.
Compound will conduct electricity when dissolved ionic solutes are present.

Other handling and storage requirements:
A high pressure containment vessel should be used for the vapor at high temperatures.
Do not allow filled, closed containers to solidify as compound expands upon freezing.

stike · January 2009

in the egg, the silicone does not get to temps where it ignites or gives off smoke...

Fidel · January 2009

Here's a theoretical question for ya:

What would happen if we made a gasket out of turbinado sugar?

AZRP · January 2009

That was in reference to him burning his wife's silicone muffin trays. -RP

stike · January 2009

yeah. i didn't see your changed subject header. hahaha

HIS silicone burnt. and that's another a reason my mistress doesn't lean over the egg when it's blazing, too.

stike · January 2009

it would burn a half a degree SOONER than one made of purer (more refined) white table sugar.

i thought i clarified for you that turbinado burns SOONER, rather than at higher temps.
hahahahaha

(i'm gonna kick your ass after we have band practice)

fishlessman · January 2009

3m77 holds higher than 250 degrees, they are playing it safe. my coal stove runs at 500 degrees surface metal temp and occasionally up to about 650 degrees and the 3m holds the rutland on the door gasket pretty well, in 7 years ive only replaced it once with new glue. 7 years is a scary number for me. at about 3.6 tons of coal per year thats 50 thousand 400 pounds of coal ive carried down the hill to the camp

stike · January 2009

and god knows you drink a beer for each load you carry.....

( :evil: )

Fidel · January 2009

Could be worse fish - you could have to carry it uphill.

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