OT - Another Shooting. Sad.

Spaightlabs · February 2018

JohnInCarolina said:

Cultures have their own interior logic. That logic is very resistant to change. Once a thing is there, it is very difficult to get rid of the thing, no matter how demonstrably harmful it is.

A culture will curl protectively around the very things that are killing it, because the other option is a complete loss of identity. And so we have effectively embraced a form of ritualized violence upon ourselves, or at minimum, have become numb to it. We are stuck because we can’t even agree that the instruments of that violence are a problem.

There are many examples of this sort of thing in other cultures. What perhaps makes us special as Americans is that we like to think of ourselves as immune to this sort of thing, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Cigarettes come immediately to mind.

Cigs don't kill people. Smoking them does.

billt01 · February 2018

Spaightlabs said:

JohnInCarolina said:

Cultures have their own interior logic. That logic is very resistant to change. Once a thing is there, it is very difficult to get rid of the thing, no matter how demonstrably harmful it is.

A culture will curl protectively around the very things that are killing it, because the other option is a complete loss of identity. And so we have effectively embraced a form of ritualized violence upon ourselves, or at minimum, have become numb to it. We are stuck because we can’t even agree that the instruments of that violence are a problem.

There are many examples of this sort of thing in other cultures. What perhaps makes us special as Americans is that we like to think of ourselves as immune to this sort of thing, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Cigarettes come immediately to mind.

Cigs don't kill people. Smoking them does.

then we should be less worried about guns and more worried about tobacco..

"Cigarette smoking causes about one of every five deaths in the United States each year."

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/index.htm

HeavyG · February 2018

Image: https://us.v-cdn.net/5017260/uploads/editor/g9/b22ekpox6obx.png

The American solution to a problem.

Toxarch · February 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Myrpp7xhmm4

Everyone knew the guy had mental problems. He even posted on Youtube that he was going to be a "Professional School Shooter". The FBI was notified about the post. But nothing was done. You can't arrest a person for a comment. Probably falls under free speech.

http://tribunist.com/news/im-going-to-be-a-professional-school-shooter-what-the-fbi-knew-about-nikolas-cruz/?utm_source=SR

billt01 · February 2018

on a serious note, why do we not make it an agenda to revoke the selling of cigarettes..

is it because cigarettes are not a hot topic and do not have the "shock" factor which some people are trying to capitalize on?

Why are some people making a big deal about guns and not about cigarettes?

One, quite obviously, kills more Americans (no telling how many world wide) than guns..

So why?

GATraveller · February 2018

GrateEggspectations said:

Accordingly, access to guns (which far eclipse the killing capabilities of many other readily-available potential weapons), whether they be one’s own or those of a friend or family member, as well as a cultural embrace of guns that normalizes ownership must absolutely figure within the dialogue in addressing the issue, IMO.

Good point.

Image: https://media1.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2017_18/1988706/170504-terrorist-poster-ac-543p_348981ec6b32fab0f8a9e2c9c224b1a1.nbcnews-ux-600-480.jpg

billt01 · February 2018

billt01 said:

on a serious note, why do we not make it an agenda to revoke the selling of cigarettes..

is it because cigarettes are not a hot topic and do not have the "shock" factor which some people are trying to capitalize on?

Why are some people making a big deal about guns and not about cigarettes?

One, quite obviously, kills more Americans (no telling how many world wide) than guns..

So why?

Assault by firearm is the 10th most likely cause of death in the USA, with the odds at1 in 300. Not particularly helpful by itself, without some context. The kinds of things that are more likely to kill you include heart disease, #1 at 1 in 6, cancer #2 and 1 in 7

So why are the people on here asking for gun control not the same people who are fighting the good fight on foods which are high in cholesterol and cigarettes?

I know why...and so do those people...

Spaightlabs · February 2018

billt01 said:

billt01 said:

on a serious note, why do we not make it an agenda to revoke the selling of cigarettes..

is it because cigarettes are not a hot topic and do not have the "shock" factor which some people are trying to capitalize on?

Why are some people making a big deal about guns and not about cigarettes?

One, quite obviously, kills more Americans (no telling how many world wide) than guns..

So why?

Assault by firearm is the 10th most likely cause of death in the USA, with the odds at1 in 300. Not particularly helpful by itself, without some context. The kinds of things that are more likely to kill you include heart disease, #1 at 1 in 6, cancer #2 and 1 in 7

So why are the people on here asking for gun control not the same people who are fighting the good fight on foods which are high in cholesterol and cigarettes?

I know why...and so do those people...

You caught us Mr. LaPierre. Well done sir, or may I call you Wayne?

johnkitchens · February 2018

HeavyG said:

The American solution to a problem.

What is your solution?

Spaightlabs · February 2018

Anything would be better than thoughts and prayers.

It's pretty clear that inaction will not solve anything, can we agree on that?

dmchicago · February 2018

billt01 said:

billt01 said:

on a serious note, why do we not make it an agenda to revoke the selling of cigarettes..

is it because cigarettes are not a hot topic and do not have the "shock" factor which some people are trying to capitalize on?

Why are some people making a big deal about guns and not about cigarettes?

One, quite obviously, kills more Americans (no telling how many world wide) than guns..

So why?

Assault by firearm is the 10th most likely cause of death in the USA, with the odds at1 in 300. Not particularly helpful by itself, without some context. The kinds of things that are more likely to kill you include heart disease, #1 at 1 in 6, cancer #2 and 1 in 7

So why are the people on here asking for gun control not the same people who are fighting the good fight on foods which are high in cholesterol and cigarettes?

I know why...and so do those people...

Hard to kill 17 people in 6 minutes with a pack of Marlboros.

billt01 · February 2018

dmchicago said:

billt01 said:

billt01 said:

on a serious note, why do we not make it an agenda to revoke the selling of cigarettes..

is it because cigarettes are not a hot topic and do not have the "shock" factor which some people are trying to capitalize on?

Why are some people making a big deal about guns and not about cigarettes?

One, quite obviously, kills more Americans (no telling how many world wide) than guns..

So why?

Assault by firearm is the 10th most likely cause of death in the USA, with the odds at1 in 300. Not particularly helpful by itself, without some context. The kinds of things that are more likely to kill you include heart disease, #1 at 1 in 6, cancer #2 and 1 in 7

So why are the people on here asking for gun control not the same people who are fighting the good fight on foods which are high in cholesterol and cigarettes?

I know why...and so do those people...

Hard to kill 17 people in 6 minutes with a pack of Marlboros.

But it’s ok to kill ~500,00...

with a pack or Marlboros

Spaightlabs · February 2018

billt01 said:

billt01 said:

on a serious note, why do we not make it an agenda to revoke the selling of cigarettes..

is it because cigarettes are not a hot topic and do not have the "shock" factor which some people are trying to capitalize on?

Why are some people making a big deal about guns and not about cigarettes?

One, quite obviously, kills more Americans (no telling how many world wide) than guns..

So why?

Assault by firearm is the 10th most likely cause of death in the USA, with the odds at1 in 300. Not particularly helpful by itself, without some context. The kinds of things that are more likely to kill you include heart disease, #1 at 1 in 6, cancer #2 and 1 in 7

So why are the people on here asking for gun control not the same people who are fighting the good fight on foods which are high in cholesterol and cigarettes?

I know why...and so do those people...

Just to clarify, is your position that we should continue to let children be killed in schools until fast food is completely eliminated as a cause of death or would you conceptually be ok working on both at once?

johnkitchens · February 2018

Spaightlabs said:

Anything would be better than thoughts and prayers.

It's pretty clear that inaction will not solve anything, can we agree on that?

No we can't agree on that. When something tragic happens you really have a problem with people offering thoughts and prayers?

billt01 · February 2018

Spaightlabs said:

billt01 said:

billt01 said:

on a serious note, why do we not make it an agenda to revoke the selling of cigarettes..

is it because cigarettes are not a hot topic and do not have the "shock" factor which some people are trying to capitalize on?

Why are some people making a big deal about guns and not about cigarettes?

One, quite obviously, kills more Americans (no telling how many world wide) than guns..

So why?

Assault by firearm is the 10th most likely cause of death in the USA, with the odds at1 in 300. Not particularly helpful by itself, without some context. The kinds of things that are more likely to kill you include heart disease, #1 at 1 in 6, cancer #2 and 1 in 7

So why are the people on here asking for gun control not the same people who are fighting the good fight on foods which are high in cholesterol and cigarettes?

I know why...and so do those people...

Just to clarify, is your position that we should continue to let children be killed in schools until fast food is completely eliminated as a cause of death or would you conceptually be ok working on both at once?

I believe if everyone who wants to make an argument concerning gun control should prioritize the causes of death..

seems like some some people on here are perfectly fine killing themselves with food and cigarettes over a long period of time, but get bent out of shape with guns...

funny thing here is some have no concern with what people do to themselves, but are worried as hell about someone else’s actions...

Spaightlabs · February 2018

johnkitchens said:

Spaightlabs said:

Anything would be better than thoughts and prayers.

It's pretty clear that inaction will not solve anything, can we agree on that?

No we can't agree on that. When something tragic happens you really have a problem with people offering thoughts and prayers?

When it is a substitution for action and meant only to placate the sheep, absolutely.

Spaightlabs · February 2018

billt01 said:

Spaightlabs said:

billt01 said:

billt01 said:

on a serious note, why do we not make it an agenda to revoke the selling of cigarettes..

is it because cigarettes are not a hot topic and do not have the "shock" factor which some people are trying to capitalize on?

Why are some people making a big deal about guns and not about cigarettes?

One, quite obviously, kills more Americans (no telling how many world wide) than guns..

So why?

Assault by firearm is the 10th most likely cause of death in the USA, with the odds at1 in 300. Not particularly helpful by itself, without some context. The kinds of things that are more likely to kill you include heart disease, #1 at 1 in 6, cancer #2 and 1 in 7

So why are the people on here asking for gun control not the same people who are fighting the good fight on foods which are high in cholesterol and cigarettes?

I know why...and so do those people...

Just to clarify, is your position that we should continue to let children be killed in schools until fast food is completely eliminated as a cause of death or would you conceptually be ok working on both at once?

I believe if everyone who wants to make an argument concerning gun control should prioritize the causes of death..

seems like some some people on here are perfectly fine killing themselves with food and cigarettes over a long period of time, but get bent out of shape with guns...

funny thing here is some have no concern with what people do to themselves, but are worried as hell about someone else’s actions...

Boy, I just about have to be reading that last sentence incorrectly? Are you not worried about someone else's actions when they walk into a school with a "modern sporting rifle" and multiple high capacity magazines?

Spaightlabs · February 2018

billt01 said:

Spaightlabs said:

billt01 said:

billt01 said:

on a serious note, why do we not make it an agenda to revoke the selling of cigarettes..

is it because cigarettes are not a hot topic and do not have the "shock" factor which some people are trying to capitalize on?

Why are some people making a big deal about guns and not about cigarettes?

One, quite obviously, kills more Americans (no telling how many world wide) than guns..

So why?

Assault by firearm is the 10th most likely cause of death in the USA, with the odds at1 in 300. Not particularly helpful by itself, without some context. The kinds of things that are more likely to kill you include heart disease, #1 at 1 in 6, cancer #2 and 1 in 7

So why are the people on here asking for gun control not the same people who are fighting the good fight on foods which are high in cholesterol and cigarettes?

I know why...and so do those people...

Just to clarify, is your position that we should continue to let children be killed in schools until fast food is completely eliminated as a cause of death or would you conceptually be ok working on both at once?

I believe if everyone who wants to make an argument concerning gun control should prioritize the causes of death..

seems like some some people on here are perfectly fine killing themselves with food and cigarettes over a long period of time, but get bent out of shape with guns...

funny thing here is some have no concern with what people do to themselves, but are worried as hell about someone else’s actions...

Also, for the record, I am perfectly fine with people killing THEMSELVES with guns, so long as they are the first and only subject of said action.

johnkitchens · February 2018

Spaightlabs said:

johnkitchens said:

Spaightlabs said:

Anything would be better than thoughts and prayers.

It's pretty clear that inaction will not solve anything, can we agree on that?

No we can't agree on that. When something tragic happens you really have a problem with people offering thoughts and prayers?

When it is a substitution for action and meant only to placate the sheep, absolutely.

Placate the Sheep. Nice. You are a hell of a guy. I had nothing to do with the shooting yesterday, but I do offer thoughts and prayers to the families. I guess I should not do that.

So what "action" should I take so as not to placate the sheep? What are you doing since you aren't offering prayers and thoughts?

billt01 · February 2018

Spaightlabs said:

billt01 said:

Spaightlabs said:

billt01 said:

billt01 said:

on a serious note, why do we not make it an agenda to revoke the selling of cigarettes..

is it because cigarettes are not a hot topic and do not have the "shock" factor which some people are trying to capitalize on?

Why are some people making a big deal about guns and not about cigarettes?

One, quite obviously, kills more Americans (no telling how many world wide) than guns..

So why?

Assault by firearm is the 10th most likely cause of death in the USA, with the odds at1 in 300. Not particularly helpful by itself, without some context. The kinds of things that are more likely to kill you include heart disease, #1 at 1 in 6, cancer #2 and 1 in 7

So why are the people on here asking for gun control not the same people who are fighting the good fight on foods which are high in cholesterol and cigarettes?

I know why...and so do those people...

Just to clarify, is your position that we should continue to let children be killed in schools until fast food is completely eliminated as a cause of death or would you conceptually be ok working on both at once?

I believe if everyone who wants to make an argument concerning gun control should prioritize the causes of death..

seems like some some people on here are perfectly fine killing themselves with food and cigarettes over a long period of time, but get bent out of shape with guns...

funny thing here is some have no concern with what people do to themselves, but are worried as hell about someone else’s actions...

Boy, I just about have to be reading that last sentence incorrectly? Are you not worried about someone else's actions when they walk into a school with a "modern sporting rifle" and multiple high capacity magazines?

No, I am not.. and if your curious why. I have been brought up to worry about what I Can control, not what I cannot.

People who who want gun control want to control other people by legislation.

There is a much better chance of a longer life eating healthy, not smoking, and definitely not worrying about other people and what they do..

billt01 · February 2018

And to reiterate, if certain people are so concerned about saving lives by removing certain guns off the shelves, why would you not want to show the same initiative to remove tobacco off the shelves...

you can can still control certain people with legislation (which has got to be a plus) and the net lives saved would be much greater...

YukonRon · February 2018

“It is not a tragedy of bigotry or inferior police work; it is a tragedy of freedom. If a group scapegoat is needed, let it be the authors of the Bill of Rights who guaranteed all of us, including not-quite-certifiable madmen, the right to move freely and to bear arms.”

That was printed on or about 1963 in Life magazine, the John F. Kennedy Memorial Edition. Let. That. Sink. In. Then ask yourself why it has been Over 50 Years And we have done Nothing, Absolutely Nothing, to prevent shet like this from continuing to happen.

I mean, other than the support of our hearts and prayers. Thats seems to be really working

This will never change, until the fear of change from the greatest voting machine, in the world, finally says enough, and steps up to demand this problem be fixed.

I am tired of explaning, to other people my sole reason to have a gun, is to protect my loved ones, from the idiots our country has given the right, to own them.

The problem is not the mentally challenged person that walks into the school hell bent on killing for power, for getting even, or for whatever their sick and twisted mind thinks will bring justification for their actions....

The problem is me and you. We continue to allow this to happen.

We all sit back and claim there is no answer. There is one. Ammend the Fvcking Constitution. Quit making a mockery of allowing firearms to be anything but a tool for the freedom against tyranny.

That could be the start, then add in the right to responsibly own weapons for hunting. Single shot weapons, as we had when the constitution was written. For sporting purposes.

Anything. Anything is better than what we have done. Unless, of course, you are perfectly fine with the continued slaughtering of innocent school children by people that have no right to own a weapon, just to protect my and your right to own several AR15s.

My opinion.

billt01 · February 2018

YukonRon said:

“It is not a tragedy of bigotry or inferior police work; it is a tragedy of freedom. If a group scapegoat is needed, let it be the authors of the Bill of Rights who guaranteed all of us, including not-quite-certifiable madmen, the right to move freely and to bear arms.”
That was printed on or about 1963 in Life magazine, the John F. Kennedy Memorial Edition. Let. That. Sink. In. Then ask yourself why it has been Over 50 Years And we have done Nothing, Absolutely Nothing, to prevent shet like this from continuing to happen.
I mean, other than the support of our hearts and prayers. Thats seems to be really working
This will never change, until the fear of change from the greatest voting machine, in the world, finally says enough, and steps up to demand this problem be fixed.
I am tired of explaning, to other people my sole reason to have a gun, is to protect my loved ones, from the idiots our country has given the right, to own them.
The problem is not the mentally challenged person that walks into the school hell bent on killing for power, for getting even, or for whatever their sick and twisted mind thinks will bring justification for their actions....
The problem is me and you. We continue to allow this to happen.
We all sit back and claim there is no answer. There is one. Ammend the Fvcking Constitution. Quit making a mockery of allowing firearms to be anything but a tool for the freedom against tyranny.
That could be the start, then add in the right to responsibly own weapons for hunting. Single shot weapons, as we had when the constitution was written. For sporting purposes.
Anything. Anything is better than what we have done. Unless, of course, you are perfectly fine with the continued slaughtering of innocent school children by people that have no right to own a weapon, just to protect my and your right to own several AR15s.
My opinion.

“The problem is me and you. We continue to allow this to happen.”

if you believe this, you are mistaken..

The problem is not me, and the problem is not you...

g8golfer · February 2018

@YukonRon I agree with you 100%. Im a republican and I have a 4 year old daughter in daycare and I couldn’t imagine this happening to my child. Our gun laws are out of control but it’s all about money. NRA is pumping money into the pockets of our elected officials. It happens on both side of politics.

onedbguru · February 2018

GATraveller said:

Spaightlabs said:

And the only thing that is ever offered is thoughts and prayers because the NRA is Now Running America.

Can't imaging being the parent of a murdered child and hearing a bunch of 'thoughts and prayers' and waiting for the next one.

I'm sure I'd be furious. How dare someone bring God and prayer into a situation like this!!! I mean.....what would God know about losing a child? The nerve of people.

Uhhh??? If you knew Christianity, GOD sent HIS Son to DIE on a cruel cross for the sins of the world - so, Yes, GOD knows all about losing a child. It is because GOD is not given a thought that we think we are god and there are no consequences now or in the after-life for anything we do also known as the loss of our collective moral compass.

It would be only with GOD's comfort and solace that I could even imagine losing a child.

onedbguru · February 2018

g8golfer said:

@YukonRon I agree with you 100%. Im a republican and I have a 4 year old daughter in daycare and I couldn’t imagine this happening to my child. Our gun laws are out of control but it’s all about money. NRA is pumping money into the pockets of our elected officials. It happens on both side of politics.

And exactly what law do you envision stopping ANY crime. Laws are punitive and are only effective for cleaning up after the fact. They are NOT, CANNOT, WILL NEVER BE preventive. IIRC, ALL of the "mass" shooting firearms were purchased legally - except Sandy Hook, where the kid STOLE the weapon from his {dead} mother.

This will always be a matter of the heart. This evil has been around since Cain murdered his brother because of jealousy. There is evil and laws will never stop man's ability to kill another.

Anyone blaming the NRA or any other organization or political party for the evil in this world is very much misplaced.

FlyOverCountry · February 2018

onedbguru said:

GATraveller said:

Spaightlabs said:

And the only thing that is ever offered is thoughts and prayers because the NRA is Now Running America.

Can't imaging being the parent of a murdered child and hearing a bunch of 'thoughts and prayers' and waiting for the next one.

I'm sure I'd be furious. How dare someone bring God and prayer into a situation like this!!! I mean.....what would God know about losing a child? The nerve of people.

Uhhh??? If you knew Christianity, GOD sent HIS Son to DIE on a cruel cross for the sins of the world - so, Yes, GOD knows all about losing a child. It is because GOD is not given a thought that we think we are god and there are no consequences now or in the after-life for anything we do also known as the loss of our collective moral compass.

It would be only with GOD's comfort and solace that I could even imagine losing a child.

PRAISE JESUS BROTHER!!!

lousubcap · February 2018

Spaightlabs said:

ColtsFan said:

Not the time nor place but gun control is not the issue.

Mental Wellness is the problem.

Not the time or place, but what are other countries doing about their mental health problems that they don't have mass casualty events?

I'm interested if anyone has any opinions or facts regarding the above posed by @Spaightlabs? Seems like a straight-forward question...

DoubleEgger · February 2018

One thing that people can do to help is strengthening the family unit. Parents need be involved in their kids lives. Eat dinners together, spend time together. Know what’s going on with them. Have hard conversations. I believe that there’s a correlation with the overall degregation of the family unit and increased severe crimes.

HeavyG · February 2018

lousubcap said:

Spaightlabs said:

ColtsFan said:

Not the time nor place but gun control is not the issue.

Mental Wellness is the problem.

Not the time or place, but what are other countries doing about their mental health problems that they don't have mass casualty events?

I'm interested if anyone has any opinions or facts regarding the above posed by @Spaightlabs? Seems like a straight-forward question...

Americans are seemingly a more violent people and we put more people in prison than any other country by far. A large number of prisoners are in jail in lieu of getting proper mental healthcare.

Perhaps a good place to start is that most of our peer nations have better health care systems which probably makes it easier for people to get the mental healthcare they might need.

OT - Another Shooting. Sad.

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