Sous vide medium-rare burgers?

Theophan · April 2016

fishlessman said:

looking at those numbers and figuring we eat 50 billion burgers per year the odds of dying from a burger is similar to winning powerball

<laughing> I get it, and I sympathize with the feeling. But the math says otherwise. To consider that seriously, for a moment, if there are 96,000 illnesses from E. coli O157:H7 (alone, and there are other illnesses caused by ground beef), and there are, say, 320,000,000 people in the US, that'd be a 0.03% chance of you getting it in any given year. That sounds tiny, and it is, though it still means that something like one out of 3,333 people WILL get sick. But first of all, the chances of winning the Powerball (just the jackpot, that is) are something like one in 292 million.

That makes it 87,599 TIMES MORE LIKELY that you will get sick from E. coli O157:H7 this year than winning the Powerball.

But worse, the risk we're talking about is per year, right? So if you take this risk every year for 10 years, now we're talking about a one in 333 chance you're going to get miserably sick. That's still small, but we're sure not talking about Powerball, are we?

How many years have you been grilling burgers? Let's say 20, just pulling a number out of a hat. Now it's one in 167. Still really small, but we're not talking about catching a cold, here, but about being desperately, miserably sick, maybe in the hospital. One in 167 doesn't sound that great to me.

I don't know about you, but I've been cooking burgers a LOT longer than 20 years... In 40 years, now your chance of getting really, really sick is one out of 83...

Still liking those odds?

gdenby · April 2016

@Theophan

I pre-ordered M(ordernist)C(uisine) several years ago. Here is a vid of how the MC crew do their SV burgers. As I suspected, you don't just need an SV at 127F, but a quick bath in liquid nitrogen. Way beyond what I want to do.

I have SV'd ground beef to pasturize it. Then mixed in some extra gelatin, and refrigerated it. Then made patties and cooked as usual. Still too much trouble.

I think you 1st inclination, grind your own burger, is probably the easiest way to get safe and delicious meat. I've eaten burgers from a few places that grind only when the burger is ordered, and never had a problem.

jtcBoynton · April 2016

And the point is, if you are willing to employ a "complicated" cooking method (sous vide) you can greatly lower those odds. You can have that medium-rare burger without the risk with just a little extra effort.

Darby_Crenshaw · April 2016

It's safer to eat raw burger than raw spinach. That said, sous vide allows holding at longer temps below 140 in order to pasteurize.

I don't sous vide, but someone should be able to provide a chart.

Essentially, if i am grilling, and 140 is considered 'safe' after a few seconds, i could sous vide at say 125, but simply for a longer period

fishlessman · April 2016

Theophan said:

fishlessman said:

looking at those numbers and figuring we eat 50 billion burgers per year the odds of dying from a burger is similar to winning powerball

<laughing> I get it, and I sympathize with the feeling. But the math says otherwise. To consider that seriously, for a moment, if there are 96,000 illnesses from E. coli O157:H7 (alone, and there are other illnesses caused by ground beef), and there are, say, 320,000,000 people in the US, that'd be a 0.03% chance of you getting it in any given year. That sounds tiny, and it is, though it still means that something like one out of 3,333 people WILL get sick. But first of all, the chances of winning the Powerball (just the jackpot, that is) are something like one in 292 million.

That makes it 87,599 TIMES MORE LIKELY that you will get sick from E. coli O157:H7 this year than winning the Powerball.

But worse, the risk we're talking about is per year, right? So if you take this risk every year for 10 years, now we're talking about a one in 333 chance you're going to get miserably sick. That's still small, but we're sure not talking about Powerball, are we?

How many years have you been grilling burgers? Let's say 20, just pulling a number out of a hat. Now it's one in 167. Still really small, but we're not talking about catching a cold, here, but about being desperately, miserably sick, maybe in the hospital. One in 167 doesn't sound that great to me.

I don't know about you, but I've been cooking burgers a LOT longer than 20 years... In 40 years, now your chance of getting really, really sick is one out of 83...

Still liking those odds?

im just looking at the odds per burger killing you, americans ate 50 billion burgers last year and 31 died, that works out to 1 deadly burger out of 1.613 billion burgers served

the big powerball recently sold 1.325 billion tickets, 3 people won, thats 1 winner per 441.667 million tickets sold

Little Steven · April 2016

Darby_Crenshaw said:

It's safer to eat raw burger than raw spinach. That said, sous vide allows holding at longer temps below 140 in order to pasteurize.

I don't sous vide, but someone should be able to provide a chart.

Essentially, if i am grilling, and 140 is considered 'safe' after a few seconds, i could sous vide at say 125, but simply for a longer period

Says a guy that once ate raw pork that was in the danger zone for a day and a half.

jtcBoynton · April 2016

fishlessman said:

...

im just looking at the odds per burger killing you, americans ate 50 billion burgers last year and 31 died, that works out to 1 deadly burger out of 1.613 billion burgers served the big powerball recently sold 1.325 billion tickets, 3 people won, thats 1 winner per 441.667 million tickets sold

Need to consider that most of those burgers were fast food burgers that were cooked well done. Odds need to be adjusted to account for numbers of burgers cooked and consumed at lower temps.

PowerBall odds are 1 in 292,201,338 of winning a jackpot per play. The number of winners per number of tickets sold does not change the odds.

Theophan · April 2016

gdenby said:

... M(ordernist)C(uisine) ... SV at 127F, ... a quick bath in liquid nitrogen. Way beyond what I want to do.

... I think you 1st inclination, grind your own burger, is probably the easiest way to get safe and delicious meat.

Holy Moly! I watched that video -- Amazing!!! Yeah, I think that's way, way beyond reasonable. That's pretty crazy. Sure would CHOW DOWN if they offered me one, though!

And yeah, I'm leaning again toward just grinding my own beef and taking my chances. We'll see.

Darby_Crenshaw said:
... Essentially, if i am grilling, and 140 is considered 'safe' after a few seconds, i could sous vide at say 125, but simply for a longer period

Uh, no. You are an amazingly knowledgeable guy and I'm super impressed by your posts and enjoy reading them and learning from them, but I'm sorry, not this time. Clostridium Perfringens grows quite happily at 125°, so the longer the period you leave it at 125°, the more time it will have to multiply exponentially!

fishlessman said:
im just looking at the odds per burger killing you, americans ate 50 billion burgers last year and 31 died, that works out to 1 deadly burger out of 1.613 billion burgers served the big powerball recently sold 1.325 billion tickets, 3 people won, thats 1 winner per 441.667 million tickets sold

I'm afraid you're just demonstrating a way to manipulate the statistics to get the answer you want. If, in your entire life, you only eat one medium rare burger, then you'd be right! But... I don't think you're limiting yourself to one burger over a lifetime, are you?

If you eat countless burgers over decades, the real issue isn't whether one specific burger is going to be the one that makes you desperately sick -- it's just whether you're at risk of getting desperately sick from eating undercooked burgers.

You've just reminded me of that great Mark Twain line about the worst kinds of lies, in worsening order:

Lies.
Damned Lies.
Statistics.

Darby_Crenshaw · April 2016

Where are all the frigging sous vide hardos?

The Cen-Tex Smoker · April 2016

From Kenji:

Q: Is cooking burgers sous-vide safe?[TOP]

All meat should be handled and cooked carefully to avoid the risk of foodborne illness but ground beef in particular requires extra vigilance. With a large piece of beef, the surfaces of the meat may be contaminated with harmful bacteria, but the center is safe. Searing whole cuts of beef is a very effective way of eliminating those dangerous bugs. Ground beef, on the other hand, can potentially have harmful bacteria mixed throughout its volume so a simple external sear is not an effective method of destroying them.

With a burger cooked via traditional (non sous-vide) methods, I strongly suggest buying whole cuts of meat and grinding them yourself or having the butcher grind them fresh on a clean machine if you plan on serving them below medium-well.

With sous-vide methods, you have a bit more leeway as beef can be safely pasteurized at temperatures as low as 130°F if held for long enough. At 130°F, it takes 2 hours to safely pasteurize beef, while at 140°F, it takes only 12 minutes. Remember—these timeframes begin once the center of the burger reaches pasteurization temperature, so it's a good idea to add an extra half hour to those times for any burger you plan on pasteurizing.

Pasteurization cannot safely take place lower than 130°F, so for this reason, I strongly recommend freshly grinding beef for sous-vide burgers you plan on serving rare to medium-rare.

Darby_Crenshaw · April 2016

This part is illogical:

"Remember—these timeframes begin once the center of the burger reaches pasteurization temperature, so it's a good idea to add an extra half hour to those times for any burger you plan on pasteurizing."

The Cen-Tex Smoker · April 2016

agreed- never heard anyone say that before. It either is or isn't safe at the time stated. Extra 30 minutes does nothing

SmokeyPitt · April 2016

I tried it again:
http://eggheadforum.com/discussion/1193517/sous-vide-burgers-finished-on-the-egg#latest

So far I am still alive.

minniemoh · April 2016

Just thinking out loud here. I would just eat my burger and cook it how I want to. (and stay home.)Straight from The Google:The lifetime odds of dying from an injury for a person born in 2011 were 1 in 21. The odds of a car occupant dying in a transportation accident were 1 in 37,028 in 2011; the lifetime odds were 1 in 470 for a person born in 2011.

Sous vide medium-rare burgers?

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