Ice cubes or ice packs?

Jeepster47 · November 2015

Succumbed to the pressure/hype and bought a Pelican 35 last summer … price dropped to 2/3 of normal for a brief time … resistance was futile. Now I want to maximize its effectiveness, so need some guidance.

1) Ice cubes or ice packs? Why?

2) If ice packs, then which one? Why?

We have an odd assortment of ice packs that have wandered in and made themselves at home over the years. Never been that taken with their effectiveness. Notice on the internet a number of low-cost, home-brew, ice packs. Why doesn’t everyone use those? Researched Yeti ice packs and they seem to be judged lacking.

The Artic Ice product seems to get good/great reviews. Upon doing due diligence, I find they have three main offerings … all the same size and MSRP. The Alaskan packs are designed for 33.8 degrees, the Chillin Brew packs at 28.3 degrees, and the Tundra packs list 5 degrees as their operational temp. What is with that? Why wouldn’t folks want the coldest pack for the money? Doesn’t the Tundra simply have more heat absorbing capability than the other two? Or, is there some chemical chicanery that I’m missing?

Probably shouldn’t have thrown out my Styrofoam cooler and that bag of ice after all.

Mickey · November 2015

I have two Yeti's I travel with. The day before I toss a few ice blocks in to pre-cool. I have a few plastic holders that I freeze to get a larger block of ice for the bottom and use cool whip plastic bowls frozen to fill in. I do take the ice out of the bowl. Like the larger ice better. Now if just going to ice down beer I use cubes.

Darby_Crenshaw · November 2015

regardless of the type of cooler, wouldn't you want ice, unless whatever is being cooled would be damaged by being wet.

i see people draining the meltwater off their coolers all the time, because they think it is warmer than the ice. in reality, you WANT the water to remain. it's at 32 also, and water is vastly more efficient than air than cooling (or removing heat, i suppose)

basically, a can of beef in ice cold water gets colder faster than a can of beer in 32 degree air.

Mickey · November 2015

Darby_Crenshaw said:

regardless of the type of cooler, wouldn't you want ice, unless whatever is being cooled would be damaged by being wet.

i see people draining the meltwater off their coolers all the time, because they think it is warmer than the ice. in reality, you WANT the water to remain. it's at 32 also, and water is vastly more efficient than air than cooling (or removing heat, i suppose)

basically, a can of beef in ice cold water gets colder faster than a can of beer in 32 degree air.

+1 and Yeti's instructions say not to pour off the water.

nolaegghead · November 2015

Regular old ice works great. It melts, creates 32F water which is an excellent medium to transfer heat, it's cheap, you can make it at home, buy it anywhere and it'll never freeze most food (fat an exception).

However, there are times when you have something you want to keep dry in your cooler, or keep frozen.

In this case, you can keep stuff dry in bags, or in shelves or you can use ice packs. I've been working at a lab my whole adult life and we recommend NOT using blue-ice products because they can freeze samples (there are some formulations that melt below the freezing point of water) and our industry regulated storage temps are >0-4C. Basically the same "safe zone" you keep your refrigerator at.

Bagged ice (zip locs) keeps the water out of the cooler but have less surface area....they're great if you have a highly efficient cooler and put cold stuff in them, but they reduce the cooling rate if you don't.

Personally, I use ice. I have two ice makers. Very interesting the DIY ice.

Tip: keep your freezer as cold as it gets as it helps the ice or blue ice for coolers.

Nice purchase Tom!

Lit · November 2015

I am watching for containers that I can fill and freeze on my own that will fit my cooler. The ice packs are fairly expensive for what they are don't really want to drop $60 on 2 of them. Also if I can find ones that leave small gaps around the edges the water can go down there and not get in anything that isn't sealed all the way. I have my yeti 50 with me and didn't pre cool and just poured the ice tray from the fridge in it and have gone over 2 days already. With a couple big blocks and a 10lb bag of ice would go 4 days probably.

Jeepster47 · November 2015

Thanks for the quick input guys ... appreciated.

Here's what I'm hearing ... with a little between-the-lines input:

1) Don't forget to pre-cool ... regardless of the cooling medium

2) If the food can get wet, then loose ice is the best ... don't drain the water except just enough to add more ice if necessary.

3) If the food can't get wet, then you have a case for a commercial ice pack, but ice is still a better alternative: a) seal the food against water or elevate on a shelf b) seal the ice against leaking

Further questions:

1) What is it with Artic Ice and their three offerings ... true technical differences that matter or just hype?

2) What if the food needs to stay frozen?

SmokeyPitt · November 2015

(2) If foods need to stay frozen then I think you need some dry ice.

Darby_Crenshaw · November 2015

how long does it need to stay frozen?

i used to pack my dad's cheap 1970's era coleman plastic cooler for him when he and mom drove to florida every year. we'd jam his freezer contents in there, and pour ice in and around it. then into his hatchback and covered with blankets etc.

it would take them a couple/three days to get there, and only the stuff on top was threatening to thaw.

i would imagine with the yetis etc., you wouldn't really need dry ice if it is for any reasonable amount of time

nolaegghead · November 2015

The latent heat of fusion is the energy required to change from a solid to liquid phase and gives ice their cooling "power". Water has more energy in this regard than "blue ice" packs.

If food needs to stay frozen, use dry ice. Around here it's around a buck per pound. Your cooler lid will buzz as the gas escapes.

Mickey · November 2015

Lit said:

I am watching for containers that I can fill and freeze on my own that will fit my cooler. The ice packs are fairly expensive for what they are don't really want to drop $60 on 2 of them. Also if I can find ones that leave small gaps around the edges the water can go down there and not get in anything that isn't sealed all the way. I have my yeti 50 with me and didn't pre cool and just poured the ice tray from the fridge in it and have gone over 2 days already. With a couple big blocks and a 10lb bag of ice would go 4 days probably.

Traveling in the back of the van my 45 will go a full week with the blocks and the 20 Will go about 3 days (it is also opened more).

nolaegghead · November 2015

Darby_Crenshaw said:

how long does it need to stay frozen?

i used to pack my dad's cheap 1970's era coleman plastic cooler for him when he and mom drove to florida every year. we'd jam his freezer contents in there, and pour ice in and around it. then into his hatchback and covered with blankets etc.

it would take them a couple/three days to get there, and only the stuff on top was threatening to thaw.

i would imagine with the yetis etc., you wouldn't really need dry ice if it is for any reasonable amount of time

My assumption is if it needs to stay frozen, it needs to stay frozen. Say tubs of ice cream, or tissue samples. Dry ice is the de facto solution for non-powered coolers.

Jeepster47 · November 2015

My first use for the Pelican was to transport frozen pasties back home from the UP ... the way we futzed, it took us about 12 hours. I used frozen water in a couple of 2 quart milk jugs. The pasties on top were just starting to thaw. Thus the research of commercial ice packs.

The pasties came from a local bakery, so don't know if they were frozen to zero degrees or 31 degrees. Dry ice was available, but getting it would have been a hassle.

Davec433 · November 2015

We have a couple Yeti Ice and they are pricey for what you buy but we've had them for probably six months now and no issues.

Darby_Crenshaw · November 2015

if it needs to be kept frozen on a two hour trip over the river and through the wood to grandma's house, and a yeti still requires dry ice to keep something frozen, then why get a yeti?

cross country, then sure, use dry ice.

but you have to be careful, or in a year the standard answer here will be "any thing frozen requires dry ice"

nolaegghead · November 2015

Jeepster47 said:

My first use for the Pelican was to transport frozen pasties back home from the UP ... the way we futzed, it took us about 12 hours. I used frozen water in a couple of 2 quart milk jugs. The pasties on top were just starting to thaw. Thus the research of commercial ice packs.

The pasties came from a local bakery, so don't know if they were frozen to zero degrees or 31 degrees. Dry ice was available, but getting it would have been a hassle.

Every area is different, but there's an ice house near me that services all the shrimpers and fishermen that work out of Bayou Segnette. You drive your truck up to the dock, tell them what you want (up to 200 pound blocks or dry ice or whatever)...pay cash and take off. I can be in and out of there in 5 minutes. I bought all the ice for brisket camp there. It's way cheaper than the store ice...if you need a lot of cheap ice, it's a great resource. Most cities will have something like that.

nolaegghead · November 2015

Darby_Crenshaw said:

if it needs to be kept frozen on a two hour trip over the river and through the wood to grandma's house, and a yeti still requires dry ice to keep something frozen, then why get a yeti?

cross country, then sure, use dry ice.

but you have to be careful, or in a year the standard answer here will be "any thing frozen requires dry ice"

I concede that is true...people take things literally.

Jeepster47 · November 2015

nolaegghead said:

The latent heat of fusion is the energy required to change from a solid to liquid phase and gives ice their cooling "power". Water has more energy in this regard than "blue ice" packs. ...

Let me see if this supposition makes sense then: The three Artic Ice offerings have the same heat energy absorption capacity ... based on equal volumes of magic ice and equal MSRP. The magic ice is chemically tuned to absorb the (same about of) heat energy at different temperatures ... ie the ingredients change from a solid to a liquid (gel) at the advertised temperatures.

Thus, cooling your beer with the Tundra 5 degree packs is not efficient. The packs waste energy absorption capacity by trying to cool the beer and the cooler below the 28 ~ 32 degree level. The Tundra packs would be most efficient at keeping frozen foods frozen.

Make any sense?

Edit: That might explain why the Tundra packs are tuned to 5 degrees. If a customers freezer is set slightly above zero degrees, the Tundra packs will still freeze solid.

Jeepster47 · November 2015

nolaegghead said:

... I bought all the ice for brisket camp there. It's way cheaper than the store ice...if you need a lot of cheap ice, it's a great resource. Most cities will have something like that.

In the Washington, IL, area dry/wet ice is easily available less than 10 miles away. The Copper Country in the UP is about 5 miles from the end of earth ... the dry ice supplier there services a much larger area, thus the hassle to purchase.

We'll be back up there next month. Will buy the pasties early and put in the home freezer to insure they are at zero degrees on departure. Will add two half gallon jugs of frozen water (out of the same freezer) for additional help. And, see if the results are better.

Mickey · November 2015

Davec433 said:

We have a couple Yeti Ice and they are pricey for what you buy but we've had them for probably six months now and no issues.

Thought about those but not practical for extended travel (no way to re-freeze at the hotel).

Foghorn · November 2015

Jeepster47 said:

nolaegghead said:

The latent heat of fusion is the energy required to change from a solid to liquid phase and gives ice their cooling "power". Water has more energy in this regard than "blue ice" packs. ...

Let me see if this supposition makes sense then: The three Artic Ice offerings have the same heat energy absorption capacity ... based on equal volumes of magic ice and equal MSRP. The magic ice is chemically tuned to absorb the (same about of) heat energy at different temperatures ... ie the ingredients change from a solid to a liquid (gel) at the advertised temperatures.

Thus, cooling your beer with the Tundra 5 degree packs is not efficient. The packs waste energy absorption capacity by trying to cool the beer and the cooler below the 28 ~ 32 degree level. The Tundra packs would be most efficient at keeping frozen foods frozen.

Make any sense?

Edit: That might explain why the Tundra packs are tuned to 5 degrees. If a customers freezer is set slightly above zero degrees, the Tundra packs will still freeze solid.

In theory (really a question) - the Tundra pack would freeze your beer. Beer freezes around 28 degrees. That's why in Brazil in most of the bars their beer coolers are set at 29 degrees. The come out with ice crystals falling off the bottles. Hence the reason for their beer pack.

Of course, all of that is theoretical. My question is - Does anybody have any experience with these packs and does this prove to be true? And how much do you have to use?

nolaegghead · November 2015

The evaporator coil in a refrigerator is well below the freezing point, yet our food doesn't freeze if the thermostat is set properly. You could freeze beer with blue ice but you'd need a lot of it relative to the amount of beer.

fishlessman · November 2015

i just use plastic liter soda bottles filled with water and frozen, cheap and i always have them around. true that cubes and water keep beer colder but good beer doesnt need to be kept that cold.

so save 4 bucks buying cheap beer and spend 4 more on the ice

Davec433 · November 2015

Mickey said:

Davec433 said:

We have a couple Yeti Ice and they are pricey for what you buy but we've had them for probably six months now and no issues.

Thought about those but not practical for extended travel (no way to re-freeze at the hotel).

My wife pumps Breast milk for our 6 month old and she would get a mini fridge every night (request through the front desk) and the milk and all the other stuff in cooler (Not a rootmolded) stayed cold the entire road trip from Virginia to Wisconsin.

Foghorn · November 2015

nolaegghead said:

The evaporator coil in a refrigerator is well below the freezing point, yet our food doesn't freeze if the thermostat is set properly. You could freeze beer with blue ice but you'd need a lot of it relative to the amount of beer.

@nolaegghead, when I did the math in my head, I came to the same conclusion. And obviously, my interest is not in freezing my beer, but in the possibility of keeping it as cold as possible without freezing.

Probably more importantly, I would love to know if 20 pounds of Artic-Ice Tundra series stuff would give me as much cooling power as 40 pounds of ice in my Yeti 65 - leaving room for more beer.

Wowens · November 2015

We use 5-6 plastic ice cream tubs and make gallon blocks of ice. They will last forever. Just freeze them, dump the ice in the cooler, then refill them for next time.

nolaegghead · November 2015

@Foghorn the freezing point of beer is below the freezing point of water. Salt your ice.

Jeepster47 · December 2015

Quick update. Checked with the bakery and their freezer is set to 28 degrees. That makes business sense 'cuz they want to freeze stuff, but have no need to take bakery products down to zero degrees. The lesson is, when folks say "it's frozen", ask to what temperature.

For this trip I put the pasties in a freezer set to zero degrees for a couple days before the trip. Precooled the Pelican, then loaded the cooler with pasties and a couple of bottles of frozen water. The end result is that after the same 12 hour time frame, the pasties were still frozen.

texaswig · December 2015

So here's my take on it. The big thing is how often do you use the cooler everyday, once a week,just on trips? If you used it everyday buy a few of those artic ice packs so you can keep trading them out. I think they take something like 12 hours to recharge. I've been thinking of getting a some to play with. Big positive for ice packs is that 35 cooler will hold alot more with out ice. One big downfall is ice for drinks. For me ice is a must have for mixed drinks.

Ice cubes or ice packs?

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