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40-140 Danger Zone Question

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I'm doing a pork butt for a party tonight.  While I was researching how long I can hold the butt in a cooler wrapped in foil for, I came across a discussion about the "danger zone" of 40-140, which is where I guess bacteria thrives.  Meat can only be in this "danger zone" for 4 hours.  

Can someone explain this to me?  Does the clock reset after the meat hits 141?  It doesn't make sense to me that meat can only be in this range for 4 hours.  So if I take the butt out of the fridge and let it come to temp for an hour, then it takes another 2 hours to come to 140 in the smoker, that means I only have 1 more hour of "safe" time for the meat to be between 20-140?  It seems like the 1st 3 hours of this scenario would be wiped out once the meat hit 140, and I'd have another 4 hours of safe time.

Am I making sense?

Thanks!!

Comments

  • Drbeach_BBQ
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    According to my local health dept. the "danger zone" comes into play after the food is cooked. It can be held for hours above 140* , but once the food temp drops into the danger zone you have 4 hours to serve it and then it must be thrown out. I hope this helps.
  • Foghorn
    Foghorn Posts: 9,836
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    Yes. Cooking the meat above 140 - like a butt which will go to about 200 - will kill anything that may have thought about growing during the time the meat was in the "danger zone". This is less true of meat that you only cook to say 145 like a pork tenderloin because the bacteria don't instantaneously die at 141. It is a combination of time and temp. Fortunately, meats cooked to lower temps tend to be easier to time.

    XXL BGE, Karebecue, Klose BYC, Chargiller Akorn Kamado, Weber Smokey Mountain, Grand Turbo gasser, Weber Smoky Joe, and the wheelbarrow that my grandfather used to cook steaks from his cattle

    San Antonio, TX

  • DMW
    DMW Posts: 13,832
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    Skip the "letting it come to room temp" step. Your butt is not going to come to room temp in an hour or so.
    They/Them
    Morgantown, PA

    XL BGE - S BGE - KJ Jr - HB Legacy - BS Pizza Oven - 30" Firepit - King Kooker Fryer -  PR72T - WSJ - BS 17" Griddle - XXL BGE  - BS SS36" Griddle - 2 Burner Gasser - Pellet Smoker
  • jls9595
    jls9595 Posts: 1,533
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    Uncooked needs to be held below 40 but is that four hours it can be above 40 as well?
    In Manchester, TN
    Vol For Life!
  • SmokeyPitt
    SmokeyPitt Posts: 10,490
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    Just to clarify further, I think they are referring to the cooking environment not the internal temp.  Once you put the meat in a 250 degree egg it is no longer in the danger zone.  


    Which came first the chicken or the egg?  I egged the chicken and then I ate his leg. 

  • LPcreation
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    Thanks for the responses.  I was thinking the same thing but wanted to hear your thoughts!
  • gdenby
    gdenby Posts: 6,239
    edited August 2014
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    A good discussion of food safety temperatures would take pages. Do read around, there's lots on the topic.

    In short, "4 hours between 40F & 140F" was a very broad statement designed to insure food safety in restaurants. Over the past few years it has been criticized, and I have come across a few restatements.

    The problem is that the growth and death rate of pathogens depends on temperature as well as time. Very roughly speaking, all pathogens will be found growing as their temperature approaches 40F. The growth rate doubles roughly every 10 warmer it gets, until around 100F. At that point the growth rate slacks off. Around 126 the pathogen population stop increasing. At 140, the organisms are being destroyed rather quickly. Around 185, they are destroyed almost instantaneously.

    The rule supposes that the food has been properly handled until it reaches the kitchen, and has little or no contamination. Once food preparation starts, it is very likely to become contaminated. Humans carry staph, for instance. Botulinum may reside on the outside of garlic. Etc.

    Given slow growth at lower temperature, working in a 50F kitchen would give a longer period of safety. But "if you can't handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen" is the normal situation. Pathogens couldn't be happier. One rule revision I came across (if I recall correctly) was that 2 hours was the safety limit at 90F.

    Note that even tho' the pathogens may be dead at140, the toxins they produced may still be present. Staph is particularly nasty, because some strains produce poisons that do not break down until over 250F.

    And another "gotcha" is that once food is cooked, it is less resistant to pathogen growth. The broad safety rule is that cooked food can only be in the 40 - 140 danger zone for 2 hours.

    If you look at the rules for how hot a food should get to be safe to eat, you'll notice than things like ground meats aren't safe till 185. The notion is that the process of grinding would spread pathogens thru the whole mass. Some larger pieces meats may be served after reaching 125, because only the surface was contaminated, and even an oven at 200 would quickly wipe out any pathogen on the surface.

    Many of the foods cooked in the Egg are safer than average. The salt and sugar in BBQ rubs, as well as some of the herbs and spices, destroy pathogens. The smoke destroys pathogens. Vinegar based mops and sauces kill pathogens.

    I do follow the adage "when in doubt, throw it out," but one of the most common Egging problems is when the fire goes out during an overnighter and the food is discovered sitting at 120 or lower, and one wonders if the food is still safe. 1st, check the food temp. If still above 140, no prob. I  did a couple test a few years ago, I shut down an Egg with a platesetter in it when the dome temp had already declined to 180 because the fuel was running out. The exterior temps were in the high 30s to low 40s. It took longer that 1 hour for the dome temp to drop to 120.

    There area of debate remains on how safe the meat is sitting in the Egg. Even at low temperatures, the surface of the food exceeded 180 quite rapidly. The interior of the Egg is not hospitable to pathogen growth. Too dry, too much formaldehyde and creosote residue. The vents don't allow much air flow. While in cool temperatures, fecal dust can carry pathogens (got a neighbor that doesn't clean up after Fido?), hotter temperatures and sunlight clean the dust. My opinion, and that is all it is, is that meats that have made it thru long cooks are pretty safe sitting inside a cooled eggs, covered with their crust of rub and smoke.



  • Skiddymarker
    Skiddymarker Posts: 8,522
    edited August 2014
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    Chart for chicken - sous vide based shows the relationship between time and temp for food to be cooked and hence safe. 
    What this says is if chicken with 10% fat can be held with an internal temp of 137º for one hour, it is cooked and safe to eat - the texture might turn you off, but it would be safe. 

    @gdenby - great summary. 
    Delta B.C. - Whiskey and steak, because no good story ever started with someone having a salad!