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Letting charcoal stabilize before adding food?

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I keep hearing about letting the charcoal burn a while before you add your food. My question with this is for low and slow cooks there will always be unlit charcoal in the firebox because of the low temperature and time required for that style of cooking. I've always used a WSM and the Minion method with Kingsford Competition Briquettes and never experienced the "off" flavors many of you speak of. Also it seems that once the egg is burning for a while adding smoke wood would be a bear since there is no access door like the WSM into the fire box. I have only used lump so far in my BGE and the first few cooks there was a strong flavor when I added my food too soon. I've only done grilling and pizza's so far on my BGE but am getting ready to do a 17lb Brisket cook and am looking for suggestions, Ken
Dearborn MI

Comments

  • gerhardk
    gerhardk Posts: 942
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    I think the instruction that come with egg make it seem like you light the egg and cook.  I find this is true for grilling but low and slow I have it stabilized for at least a 1/2 hour before adding food.   Before adding the food I hold my hand above the top vent for ten to twenty seconds if it smells good I start cooking.

    Gerhard
  • BuckeyeBob
    BuckeyeBob Posts: 673
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    Key is to let it burn for about 20-30 minutes when you first light it. You will be able to tell by the smell of the smoke. If it has an acrid, bad smell then it's not quite ready. Once the heat builds up, it burns off the bad compounds, or VOCs, almost immediately so new lump that burns does not have the same issue. You are right though about the issue with adding smoke wood. Not easy without taking everything apart. Easier to bury chunks or chips throughout the pile of lump. Hope this helps.
    Clarendon Hills, IL
  • shadowcaster
    shadowcaster Posts: 620
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    You have a few parts to your question so I will try and help the best I can. The reason you want to let it stabilize is to burn off the VOCs from the lump after initial lighting. The lump that burns throughout the cook will ignite slowly and should burn clean. For a low and slow cook it is a slow process. One load of lump in my large for a 225ish cook will last well over 20hrs. Lump is a different animal from briquettes, it is all natural and burns different and better. Even when I am grilling I let the egg sit for a bit at the temp I am cooking at just to burn off the VOCs.

    As far as the wood for the "smoke" put it in the egg when you fill your lump prior to the cook. I always layer my wood and lump. Dump a little bit of lump in then add a small layer of the wood of your choice. Add another layer of lump then more wood. Do this process until you fill your firebox and you should be good. The lump will burn down slowly and the wood will ignite and burn throughout your cook. I have never added wood during a cook and I get great results. Note that it does not take a lot of wood for a smoke flavor, you can over do it in my opinion. Try this method when you do your brisket and you should be good. I have a 8lb flat on now and I am getting a good smoke flow and I am 3 hrs in.

    I hope this answers your questions and I'm sure other people will chime in with their methods. Try them out and do whatever gives YOU the best results. Good luck on the cook!
    Pure Michigan
    Large BGE, Medium BGE, Mini BGE, Weber Smokey Mountain, Weber Performer.
    If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.
  • KenfromMI
    KenfromMI Posts: 742
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    Thanks, I've had my WSM for 8 or 9 years and have that mastered I just need to learn the BGE. I'm sure my first few smokes on the Weber weren't text book either.  I may have to start using smaller wood chunks than I am used to. I usually split my own and use fist sized chunks. So are you guys saying that even if a small part of the charcoal is lit the heat of that will make the rest of the fire box lump burn off the VOC's for low and slow?  Also what does VOC stand for?
    Dearborn MI
  • buzd504
    buzd504 Posts: 3,824
    edited May 2014
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    Fist sized chunks are fine.

    VoC's are volatile organic compounds.  They burn off at a fairly low temperature, so even if all the lump isn't lit yet, the firebox will be hot enough with a small fire to burn them off.

    Different brands of lump tend to have different characteristics and some will take longer to burn clean than others.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatile_organic_compound
    NOLA
  • BuckeyeBob
    BuckeyeBob Posts: 673
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    VOC stands for Volatile Organic Compound. I am by no means anything close to a scientist so I can't even give you a definition other than it's the stuff that makes my food taste bad. As for size of the wood, you can still use your chunks or use chips if you want.
    Clarendon Hills, IL
  • SenecaTheYounger
    SenecaTheYounger Posts: 368
    edited May 2014
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    "Volatile" in general usage usually means that something is capable of burning.

    But this is NOT AT ALL what it means in the phrase "volatile organic compound".  "Volatile" in this case means that the vapors readily and easily evaporate, and do so at room temperature.  Perfumes and colognes comprise volatile organic compounds.  Nothing is required to make volatile organic compounds evaporate or be released.

    Which means it isn't the burning of the lump which releases the VOC's.  It is the mere presence of air around the lump which permits it.  If you poured out the lump in a pile on the ground and never lit it, the vast majority of VOC's would be lost in a short time.  VOC's are the smell you get when you open a brand new bag of lump.

    The hot environment of a grill accelerates the release of VOCs. Just as adding heat to water allows it to evaporate (or eventually boil) faster, so does the heated air of the grill excite the VOC's and accelerate their evaporation.

    Though there is arguably some amount of VOC's inside the lump, each piece of lump has so much surface area available to release the VOC's (including cracks and microscopic openings), that what little of the VOCs which remains in the lump is negligible compared to the whole.

    So.

    Opening the bag releases VOCs.  Pouring the lump exposes more surface area, releasing VOC's. The warmer the ambient temperature, the more VOC's are released.  Igniting some of the lump creates an even hotter environment, now with draft, which carries away more VOCs.

    What little remains in the lump, if any, is of no consequence.

    And the next day, the unburnt lump remaining will be virtually VOC-free.

    There is a general misconception that "volatile" means the lump must burn for the VOC's to be rid.  This is fundamentally incorrect, and a confusion of the similar but differing definitions for "volatile".




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    Seneca Falls, NY

  • gdenby
    gdenby Posts: 6,239
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    On average, lump is about 85% carbon. The remainder will contain wood and the residues from breaking down the wood during the transformation to charcoal. These are Volatile Organic Compounds. Somewhat ironically, lump that lights easier is higher in VOCs than better quality lump. Early on, it is the VOCs burning off that lights the carbon. Once the carbon burning starts around 800F, most of the remaining VOCs will be driven off. There will always be some production, but not enough to produce objectionable taste.

    Here's something curious (to me at least) about cooking in the Egg. While wood lights easier, and produces a hotter flame, carbon combines more aggressively w. oxygen. In the reduced airflow of a low temp Egg, the smoke wood and the remnants in the lump cannot burn. The wood pretty much evaporates, and those gases are the ones that produce the good flavors of BBQ.

    So if wood is mixed all thru the lump, there will be wood smoke flavor generated continuously, but it will be almost invisible.
  • Skiddymarker
    Skiddymarker Posts: 8,522
    edited May 2014
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    Webers have most of the fuel lit, unless you are adding some on a long cook. Kamados have very little of the fuel lit which is why you do not add anything for a long cook. Air and heat in the lump pile reduce the VOCs within the first 30 to 60 minutes so that when the smoke smells good the food tastes good. 

    EDIT - that's why in Kamados we light from the top of the lump pile, the fire follows the air down. 
    Delta B.C. - Whiskey and steak, because no good story ever started with someone having a salad!
  • KenfromMI
    KenfromMI Posts: 742
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    I always used the Minion Method in my Weber which is very little lit charcoal depending on weather and outdoor temperatures between 10 and 40 briquettes usually. I've cooked like that for 8 or 9 years and never tasted an off flavor like I did with the lump in the BGE. They gave me two free bags of BGE Lump when I purchased my unit at a small family owned store so that's the only brand of ump I've tried so far.
    Dearborn MI
  • buzd504
    buzd504 Posts: 3,824
    edited May 2014
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    Generally speaking BGE lump (made by Royal Oak) is considered middle of the road in most categories (VOCs, lightability, etc) - and perfectly acceptable to cook with.  You will probably need at least a solid 30 minutes to get it burning clean, though.

    And if you haven't found this yet, here is more than you ever wanted to know:  http://www.nakedwhiz.com/lumpindexpage.htm?bag
    NOLA
  • stemc33
    stemc33 Posts: 3,567
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    I'm still a rookie to the egg until August and one of my biggest challenges was relaxing and letting the egg warm up to clear the VOC's. I got caught up in the whole ready in 15 minutes propaganda. When I started eating the food that was cooked before VOC's cleared, it tasted horrid. The other advantage is letting the dome heat up so you get the benefit of cooking your food on the top side. The heat loss will be minimal when dome is opened if it's warmed up. Rebounds quite quickly when you close the lid.
    Steven
    Mini Max with Woo stone combo, LBGE, iGrill 2, Plate Setter, 
    two cotton pot holders to handle PS
    Banner, Wyoming
  • KenfromMI
    KenfromMI Posts: 742
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    Apparently Naked Whiz has more time than I do LOL............Are there a few premiums you can recommend so I can see if they are available in my area? Not sure I can read 600 reviews before I make a purchase LOL
    Dearborn MI
  • gdenby
    gdenby Posts: 6,239
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    My recollection of using briquettes is that at least some should be fully lit and covered w. ash before adding to the unlit lump. So there is at least 1 intensely hot spot. Once the carbon is burning, there's enough heat to destroy the VOCs as they off gas. I never used Kingsford Competition, but the Kingsford I did use had some anthracite in it, which also contributes to an intense heat.

    FWIW, one can use briquettes in an Egg, but the resulting ash will usually clog the air flow after about 6 hours. Might be worth a test to see if briquettes in an Egg also produce an off taste if used to quickly. As  I mentioned, the cooking environment in an Egg is much differant than a metal cooker.
  • Terrebandit
    Terrebandit Posts: 1,750
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    I just fire it up and wait for the white smoke to clear. It's ready.
    Dave - Austin, TX
  • Skiddymarker
    Skiddymarker Posts: 8,522
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    Suggest you try an ultra stabilized egg. Light the lump on the top of the pile towards the front. Give it 5-10 minutes of burning with vents open. Adjust the vents to lower about 1/4" and the petal in the DFMT to about 1/2 open. Go away for about an hour. Smell above the DMFT - it should be sweet and not acrid. Now put the food on. 
    Delta B.C. - Whiskey and steak, because no good story ever started with someone having a salad!
  • KenfromMI
    KenfromMI Posts: 742
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    I have about 6 bags of Kingsford Competition because it's what I used exclusively in my WSM. They produce a lot less ash than other briquettes I've tried in the past. The design of the WSM however allows a lot more ash and it is never a problem even on overnight cooks. I am going to experiment in the BGE just so I can speak from experience and not just what I've heard or what others have said.  I'm still keeping my WSM as well and I may decide to use the egg for grilling and Pizzas and not so much as a smoker depending on how it goes over time. I find it hard to believe if you clean the BGE after each use of ash like I do with my Weber that briquettes can't be used. 
    Dearborn MI
  • buzd504
    buzd504 Posts: 3,824
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    KenfromMI said:
    Apparently Naked Whiz has more time than I do LOL............Are there a few premiums you can recommend so I can see if they are available in my area? Not sure I can read 600 reviews before I make a purchase LOL
    You can get FOGO from amazon via prime, which is quite good.  The price for a 40lb bag will fluctuate between $28 and $40, so keep an eye on it (lots of threads on here about it).

    The three other prime brands are Wicked Good, Ozark Oak and Rockwood (I prefer FOGO and Rockwood) - you can get all three of those from firecraft.com and they ship free over $100.  They have a nice selection of smoke wood as well.
    NOLA
  • KenfromMI
    KenfromMI Posts: 742
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    Thanks, free shipping would be nice that's one of the reasons I wasn't interesting I'n ordering.
    Dearborn MI
  • KenfromMI
    KenfromMI Posts: 742
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    I have a ton of wood. I know a guy who cut down a white oak, a cherry tree, and a sugar maple at the same time and I've been living on that for a while.

    Dearborn MI
  • SenecaTheYounger
    SenecaTheYounger Posts: 368
    edited May 2014
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    I don't mean to start anything, but the VOC's in the large amount that we are concerned with are not a product the remaining uncarbonized organic matter which exists in the lump.  VOCs are vapors, and they are not necessarily flammable (though many are).

    The smell of gasoline is due to VOCs.  The Smell of perfume is from VOCs.

    The most familiar example, and one which should illustrate that "volatile" has nothing to do with burning or flammability, is the smell from a freshly painted room.  Even latex paint, without mineral oils, has volatile organic compounds.  As do carpets.  In fact, "new car smell" is from volatile organic compounds.  These dissipate at normal ambient temperatures, and do not require burning to do so.

    "Organic Compunds" means that it/they contain carbon, not that they are simply a "natural" thing (like wood).  Wood is organic, but it isn't an "organic compound" in the sense that is meant with "Volatile Organic Compound".

    The uncarbonized organic matter in charcoal will burn, and the smoke from it will have within it its own VOCs as a byproduct, but the chemical taste prevalent in food cooked over charcoal which has not been allowed to chase off, evaporate (not "burn off", technically) its VOC's will have that flavor.

    It's a complex combination of things, because bad chemical flavors can come from charcoal fires regardless of VOC's, if the fire is smouldering or burning poorly.

    But the fundamental point remains: even with lump which survives unburnt after a cook, VOC's are virtually gone, eliminated. The lump itself does not need to burn in order to have its VOC's driven off.  And since that is the case, it is clear that the VOC's are not related to any remaining organic matter in the lump which has not fully carbonized.

    The remaining organic matter may give off some VOC's when it burns, but it is minimal compared to the entrained VOC's which were created by the initial carbonizing (making the lump in the first place).

    If you reuse the lump the next day, the unburnt lump will not require the same 20-30 minutes to clear itself of VOC's.
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    Seneca Falls, NY

  • Sardonicus
    Sardonicus Posts: 1,700
    edited May 2014
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    I don't mean to start anything, but . . . .


    :)) Ah, but surely you know:  Any assertion contrary to 'conventional "wisdom"' is bound to start something.


    Here's my situation/question to you, if you don't mind:   When time allows, I build my fires days in advance so that when I'm ready, all I need do is grab a match and get started. 

    According to your presentation, the charcoal that I poured/stacked/whatever yesterday will be pretty much VOC-free when I start my fire tomorrow morning.  Izzat right?

    If that's the case, my only delay before the introduction of meat/food to my Egg need be for attainment of desired temp.

    I can google alla this later, of course, but I'd appreciate your response anyway.


    Thanks, SenecaTY.




     
    "Too bad all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving cabs and barbecuing."      - George Burns

  • SenecaTheYounger
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    I would think you'd still have VOCs in decent amounts left over, but much of it would likely be gone. It would be in an enclosed environment, and not have much draft washing through it, like it does when there is a fire (which heat drives off even more), so I don't think it would be a case where you could light it and go.  You'd still have some to burn off.

    I'm sure you still have some, but perhaps not as bad. 

    A week old half filled bag of charcoal still smells VOC heavy, but not at all like when you first open it.
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    Seneca Falls, NY

  • lousubcap
    lousubcap Posts: 32,385
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    The end game is to trust your nose-it the smoke smells good then it is good and you are good to go.  Good enough for me :)>-
    Louisville; Rolling smoke in the neighbourhood. # 38 for the win.  Life is too short for light/lite beer!  Seems I'm livin in a transitional period.
  • Sardonicus
    Sardonicus Posts: 1,700
    edited May 2014
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    Okay, I follow.  Thanks, SenecaTY!


    "Too bad all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving cabs and barbecuing."      - George Burns

  • SenecaTheYounger
    SenecaTheYounger Posts: 368
    edited May 2014
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    @lou

    That's the best advice.  If I fill with new charcoal, it can take a half hour to forty five minutes sometimes, especially on a low-draft cook like a low and slow.

    But if that charcoal is leftover, and I am doing chicken or steaks or something at 350-400, it will rarely require more than fifteen minutes to smell good.

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  • KenfromMI
    KenfromMI Posts: 742
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    So how do you guys add your smoke wood after the cooker is up to temperature? A pair of tongs and push it under plate setter or do you just add the wood right at start like some of the others said they do.?

    Dearborn MI
  • lousubcap
    lousubcap Posts: 32,385
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    I mix the smoke wood in along with the lump load, throughout on a low& slow.  That way when the fire moves around the fire box it will almost always encounter the wood.  I intentionally don't load any wood where I start the fire as that will be wasted waiting for the VOC bad guys to leave home.  FWIW-
    Louisville; Rolling smoke in the neighbourhood. # 38 for the win.  Life is too short for light/lite beer!  Seems I'm livin in a transitional period.
  • gdenby
    gdenby Posts: 6,239
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    And I won't continue anything, but unconverted wood will continue to produce VOCs. Just not very much. Wood decomposition from lower heat creates, among other compounds, acetaldehyde. Acetaldehyde auto ignites well below the burning temperature of carbon, so the acetaldehyde will most likely burn off if the lump has reached full heat, but not so much the formaldehyde or toluene, which ignite around the same temperature as carbon. See here: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-ignition-temperatures-d_171.html. In the case of unconverted wood, the VOCs are produced by further exposure to heat in the burning lump. The amount of residual VOC in unburnt lump is partially due to the fabrication process. It used to be common to just release them when the retort was opened, but I've read that in Missouri, some production facilities are burning methane to destroy the VOCs escaping from freshly made lump. If either process is less than perfect, the remaining charcoal, which is absorptive, will hold some VOCs. I don't know if all the VOCs will dissipate just from exposure to air flow. Nominally, VOCs do off gas at room temperature, but there is lots of variability depending on the compound.
  • SenecaTheYounger
    SenecaTheYounger Posts: 368
    edited May 2014
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    I'm in complete agreement.  I did say that there is some production of VOCs from the uncarbonized organic stuff burning.  I merely said the VOCs aren't the uncarbonized wood, but come from it when burnt.

    In fact, the reason the charcoal itself has VOC's already is from the process of making the charcoal.

    The VOC's in large amount, the stuff we are blowing off by getting the fire up to temperature and holding it for a while, are the VOC's which already exist. Not the negligible amount produced by what's remaining in the lump which is uncarbonized.

    What I am saying is that the full tank of gasoline stinks to high heaven because there are VOC's in abundance.  I do not disagree that burning the gasoline produces more also.

    It's similar with the charcoal.  We want to get rid of the vast majority of the stink which came trapped in the charcoal and the bag, brought abut by the manufacturing process (the carbonization). The little which is produced by burning is not the problem.

    Sure, unburnt charcoal will always have VOC's fro mthe manufacture left in it perhaps (minimal), and it will produce some when burnt, because it's not pure carbon.  But that's not the issue.

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    Seneca Falls, NY