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My Neighbor drives me crazy

crunkcrunk Posts: 93
edited July 2012 in EggHead Forum

Ok, so my neighbor has an Egg as well and we often "talk egging" over a cold beer in the driveway. One thing about him drives me absolutely crazy and I wanted to get some feedback from the experts on here.

He insists that the optimal temp to pull a Boston Butt is 165 degrees. Ive tasted his product before and it is no where near as tender as mine. Other than tenderness of the meat, what else can i tell him the advantages of waiting until 195 degrees are?

Any feedback is appreicated...I want to get as much "ammo" as i can to be able to convince him to let that Pork cook longer.

Thanks in advance....

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Comments

  • BuckeyeBobBuckeyeBob Posts: 628
    No way. I personally cook to 195 minimum. The rest of the collagen doesn't break down until you get to the higher temps and that process is what makes it taste so good. Plus, it's impossible to pull at that internal temperature. Just keep doing what you're doing Crunk!
    Clarendon Hills, IL
  • ncbbqncbbq Posts: 257
    edited July 2012
    I think it has something to do with turning the connective tissues to a gelatin or something. No expert here. The fact that it is conventional wisdom from well over 100 years of bbq history is enough for me. I learned it from forums like this one and other places on the web. If bbq experts have proven this is what should be done, I don't think this guy is going to come strolling along and find a better way to cook bbq. Some people are set in their ways though and if he's happy with it that's his prerogative. Sorry I can't be more help.

    Just a thought. Sometimes actions are better than words. Challenge him to a cook off where both of you cook a butt. Set up a blind taste test with some other neighbors and friends. Let the BBQ speak for itself. Some how I have a feeling your BBQ cooked to the proper level will win the day. That will settle it once and for all.
  • SamFerriseSamFerrise Posts: 544
    I take mine off the Egg at 190 and after a two hour rest wrapped in towels and stowed in a cooler.  When I pull the meat it falls off the bone and comes apart but is not mushy.  If you wait until 200 it gets too mushy in my opinion.

    Simple ingredients, amazing results!
  • crunkcrunk Posts: 93

    Thanks Everyone! Great Feedback as always!

     

    Crunk

  • StoaterStoater Posts: 292

    Any feedback is appreicated...I want to get as much "ammo" as i can to be able to convince him to let that Pork cook longer.

    Thanks in advance....

    If he has a brain between his two ears he is probably reading this thread and saying hey I had that discussion 2 days ago, must be me,
  • xraypat23xraypat23 Posts: 421
    if you're slicing it, 165 IS the optimal temp in his defense. But for shredded pork, i rarely pull before 195, more like 200
  • gdenbygdenby Posts: 4,229
    I'd approach the argument this way. Different cuts of meat have different properties.

    For instance, steaks are naturally tender. The muscle didn't work hard enough to have lots of connective tissue in it. Usually they are cooked just enough to brown the outside, leaving the juicy inside red or pink. On the other hand, there are parts like shanks that have so much tendon and hard worked muscle that they usually need a long slow braise to be edible.

    Pork butts have many different muscles. They are bound together by connective tissue, most of which is collagen. There's also a lot of fat.

    With heat and time, collagen turns to gelatin (a perfectly fine kind of protein, as good as muscle proteins) and the fat tissue breaks down into oil. At the same time, the muscle is loosing water. At some point, most of it will cook out.

    Collagen break down starts quite low, about 133F if I recall correctly. Fat renders at a slightly higher temperature. But both processes are verrrrry slowwww at that temperature. With added temperature, the speed picks up, and around 180, the conversion to gel and rendering are going quite quickly. There could be the same break down if the meat was held at 165 long enough. Might be possible to do on an Egg, although I don't recall anyone doing that.

    Assuming the butt is cooked to just 165, it will certainly be less tender. It will be less succulent because there is not as much gel, and it will not feel as smooth in the mouth because it has not been basted in its own broken down fat. Also, the fat helps convey flavor, and by itself, pig fat can have a very good flavor. Without the broken down fat, there will be less flavor.

    There may also be another improvement. The improved flavors from maillard reactions and caramelizing require some higher temperature air. As long as the meat doesn't become dessicated, and burnt, the longer and hotter the air its in, the better for browning.

    From the perspective of wanting a finished product that is tender, succulent, and flavorful, cooking a butt till it is pullable is the best method. Its is certainly edible at 165, and is well used sliced. Its just not at its peak.

    For a big hunk of pork like a loin or ham, one can go as low as 145. There's not enough connective tissue to compensate for moisture loss. 165 used to be recommended for safety purposes, but all the pork raised and sold in the U.S. has been produced is clean enough, unless it has been ground, that there is no safety reason for the higher temperature.
  • BYS1981BYS1981 Posts: 1,551
    Have him cook a butt and you cook a butt, do some blind taste tests with a neighborhood bbq.
  • Yea if he is convinced, I'd say the only real way to convince him otherwise is a cook-off.....And at that point there will be no comparison between the two.
  • cazzycazzy Posts: 5,728
    edited July 2012
    Print out the post I made pasting some stuff from Stike and he made a post after that. It's great info.

    http://eggheadforum.com/discussion/comment/1212052
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  • GriffinGriffin Posts: 6,351
    Cook off, but to be fair you should agree to use the same rub, temp cooked at, mustard slather or not. Try and keep all the variables the same, except the temp cooked to. You might even go so far as to cook them on the same egg so that they are over the same charcoal and wood for smoke. The only variable you want to change is temp cooked to. I think that was the scientist in me speaking out for a bit.

    Richardson, Texas

    Griffin's Grub or you can find me on Facebook

    The Supreme Potentate, Sovereign Commander and Sultan of Wings

     

  • cazzycazzy Posts: 5,728
    Griffin said:

    Cook off, but to be fair you should agree to use the same rub, temp cooked at, mustard slather or not. Try and keep all the variables the same, except the temp cooked to. You might even go so far as to cook them on the same egg so that they are over the same charcoal and wood for smoke. The only variable you want to change is temp cooked to. I think that was the scientist in me speaking out for a bit.

    Sounds like a solid plan. Put yours on earlier since your cook will take much longer.
    Join the 2014 Egghead Rub & Sauce Exchange!!!!  Sign up by September 22, 2014.
  • ncbbqncbbq Posts: 257
    @Griffin, good point on minimizing the variables.
  • fishlessmanfishlessman Posts: 15,927
    i dont know, maybe he cooks to 165 internal but does it longer at say 210 pit temp, now whos pit do you cook on, yours or his
    :)) ive had some delicous thin sliced and chopped pork butt and its something ive wanted to experiment with, its everybit as good as pulled pork imo
  • So if he is pulling the butt at 165, Im wondering if he is just doing that because of the stall?  But he will not have pulled pork, but chopped pork because it will not have broken all the way down. But like fishlessman stated chopped pork is just as good. But we all know 195 is key to great pork!
  • cazzycazzy Posts: 5,728
    The real question is does he pull the pork when he pulls it off at 165 or chop it like others have said?!
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  • nolaeggheadnolaegghead Posts: 11,147
    He'd almost have to pull a Fargo and run the pork through the wood chipper to pull it at 165...
    ______________________________________________
    This is my signature line just so you're not confused.
    Large and Medium BGE, two turntables and a microphone, my friend.
    New Orleans, LA - we know how to eat 

  • He'd almost have to pull a Fargo and run the pork through the wood chipper to pull it at 165...

    nice.

  • BGE4LifeBGE4Life Posts: 34
    I think there are many unkowns in this equation.  1.  Is the dome thermometer calibrated correctly.  2.  What is the cook time of the meat.  3. Is it over a liquid filled drip pan or not. I believe as a few have stated that if he is keeping his pit temp legitimately low for an extended period of time that the tenderness could be fine at a lower internal temperature.  The only real way to find out is to do a cookoff and have a judge at both places documenting the methods, times and temps after calibrating both dome thermometers at the same time.  If you force them to start and finish at the same time like a contest, I believe the higher internal temp will be better but with unlimited time I am not sure.
  • nolaeggheadnolaegghead Posts: 11,147
    I think there are many unkowns in this equation.  1.  Is the dome thermometer calibrated correctly.  2.  What is the cook time of the meat.  3. Is it over a liquid filled drip pan or not. I believe as a few have stated that if he is keeping his pit temp legitimately low for an extended period of time that the tenderness could be fine at a lower internal temperature.  The only real way to find out is to do a cookoff and have a judge at both places documenting the methods, times and temps after calibrating both dome thermometers at the same time.  If you force them to start and finish at the same time like a contest, I believe the higher internal temp will be better but with unlimited time I am not sure.

    Good point - consider his meat thermometer is reading 35F low, he could actually be cooking to 200F!

    ______________________________________________
    This is my signature line just so you're not confused.
    Large and Medium BGE, two turntables and a microphone, my friend.
    New Orleans, LA - we know how to eat 

  • COOK OFF!  Hey sounds fun, if you like the guy. :D
  • BoilereggerBoileregger Posts: 272
    I say let him do whatever the hell he wants and continue driving you crazy by undercooking his meat, rather than driving you crazy by leaving his @&$@ing barking dogs out all damn night like mine does.
  • I say let him do whatever the @#!*% he wants and continue driving you crazy by undercooking his meat, rather than driving you crazy by leaving his @&$@ing barking dogs out all @#!*% night like mine does.
    Or telling your 11 year old kid they are going to hell because they read Harry Potter books and trick or treat on Halloween like mine. Gimme a dude with an egg and some under cooked pork, PLEASE!


  • WolfpackWolfpack Posts: 994
    Cen-tex Your neighbor sounds like a good candidate for a flaming bag on the front porch.
    Greensboro, NC
  • Cen-tex Your neighbor sounds like a good candidate for a flaming bag on the front porch.
    She is certifiably nuts so I give her a wide berth. I did tell her to keep her thoughts about my kid's afterlife to herself.

    She is busily preparing for the apocalypse (not kidding) so she pretty much keeps to herself. She has a wealthy dad who put her up in an awesome house just to keep her away from him I guess. 2 kids that she won't send to school (why bother when the world is ending) and she spends all day on the interweb searching for signs of the 2nd coming. Good times


  • nolaeggheadnolaegghead Posts: 11,147
    Hilarious.  I've had crazy neighbors, but none that nuts.  You should buy a bunch of roman candles and set them off at midnight on whatever her apocalypse date is...probably (performing quick rapture search...) Dec 21st.

    Fortunately, I don't believe in magic myself, but respect everyone's freedom to be as crazy as they want to be, as long as that crazy stays away from my personal space.
    ______________________________________________
    This is my signature line just so you're not confused.
    Large and Medium BGE, two turntables and a microphone, my friend.
    New Orleans, LA - we know how to eat 

  • @nolaegghead isn't the BGE magical? Mine is!
    Lovin' my Large Egg since May 2012 (Richmond, VA) ... and makin' cookbooks at http://familycookbookproject.com
  • nolaeggheadnolaegghead Posts: 11,147
    Dat's one magic I CAN believe in!
    @nolaegghead isn't the BGE magical? Mine is!

    ______________________________________________
    This is my signature line just so you're not confused.
    Large and Medium BGE, two turntables and a microphone, my friend.
    New Orleans, LA - we know how to eat 

  • Hilarious.  I've had crazy neighbors, but none that nuts.  You should buy a bunch of roman candles and set them off at midnight on whatever her apocalypse date is...probably (performing quick rapture search...) Dec 21st.

    Fortunately, I don't believe in magic myself, but respect everyone's freedom to be as crazy as they want to be, as long as that crazy stays away from my personal space.
    I'm not even scratching the surface but I'm trying to remain somewhat respectful to many and not hijack this thread. One day I'll fill you all in but it's nuts.....

    OK- One more- She did buy gas masks and lead helmets for her and her kids when the last meteor came a few months ago. She also bought a $40 solar panel to run her computer with so she could get the word out over the internet when the end times began (I know, the entire grid of earth was going down but she was going to run everything from a Radio Shack solar panel....I get it). She had a guy come in a pull out all her appliances and metal objects so the magnetic field from the meteor would not destroy her home. We had pizza at our house that night. It was good.She had her kid fill up the pool so they would have fresh water and then he forgot about it and flooded out the entire downstairs of their house. 

    I guess what i don't understand is isn't she supposed to be raptured up when all this goes down? She's a hybrid between a doomsdayer and end times rapture is eminent person. i think she's got them mixed up.Anyhow- not disparaging anyone's beliefs, just not sure what's going on over there

    We just let her kids hang out over here and eat here all the time. I feel terrible for them.

    All of it was pretty benign until she bought her 13 year old an AR15 for Christmas and she got a Glock 9. Not kidding






  • PhiliciousPhilicious Posts: 296
    cook them side by side on the same egg.  Let him pull his.  Keep yours on until it gets to 195.  Taste test.
    Born and raised in NOLA. Now live in East TN.
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