How does brining work (really)?

jeffwit

My dad and I got in a discussion about how brining makes a piece of meat (obviously turkey in this case) moister. To me, it does not make sense that soaking a turkey in a hyperosmolic solution would result in water being pulled into the meat. Wouldn't it pull water OUT of the turkey because the osmotic pressure is higher in the salt solution? That's what makes sense to me, at least. But I know it works. Brining a bird makes the meat moister and adds a little salty flavor. So I know that at least some salt and water is getting pulled into the meat. But HOW? What's the science behind it? I asked Google, and read about how salt entering through the semi-permeable membrane causes degredation of proteins in the cell which increases the osmolality of the cell enough to pull water into the cell. I'm not sure how degredation of proteins would increase osmolality, though. I'm flummoxed.

I know this isn't a real critical question. Brining works, or at the very least doesn't dry out a piece of meat. But sometimes you just gotta figure out the why. And I want to sound smart when I talk to Dad again.

Thanks to you smart folks in advance.

lousubcap

No smart folk here but a link that sounds like what you may have already uncovered:
http://amazingribs.com/recipes/rubs_pastes_marinades_and_brines/zen_of_brines.html anyhow, the physics and reactions work.  
Edit: the amazing ribs site contains a wealth of other information and more on brining.  Give it a detailed look sometime.

theyolksonyou

I'm not that smart, but nature loves equilibrium. 

jeffwit

theyolksonyou said:

I'm not that smart, but nature loves equilibrium. 

I agree. That's why I would think water would wind up leaving the meat, making it drier, not more moist. I dunno, maybe it's magic. 

SmokingPiney

SCIENCE! 

Sometimes you just have to roll with what works and don't think too much about it.

Some Eggers dig deep into the science. I just cook what works for me and enjoy the food. 

SmokeyPitt

This is probably oversimplifying but you could compare the protein strands to a ball of yarn.  Take a ball of yarn that is wound very tightly and dunk it in water.  Take an equal amount of yarn that is wound loosely and dunk it in water, and it will retain much more (like a mop).  

So there is your scientifical answer "Duh, dad...it makes a meat mop". 

NewNashEgg

Osmosis occurs carrying water into the meat. 

If not it's probably Aliens

Ladeback69

I don't know if this will help, but this says makes since.  The salt basically breaks down the protein so that more water can get absorbed by brining.  If there is more water in the meat than normal when you start the meat should be juicier when taken off at the proper time.  I thought I had cooked mine to long, but when I carved it after it sat for 30 to 40 minutes it was really juicy.  It also lets the flavors that you add to get into the
meat. http://www.finecooking.com/articles/why-brining-keeps-meat-moist.aspx

Darby_Crenshaw

Hint: equilibrium is still not achieved when the water is drawn out of the bird due to the higher salt concentration 

DaveRichardson

I couldn't tell ya why it works, but I'm glad it did. 

MaC122

I cant figure out why cooking time is cut down after you brine. What should take 3 hours takes 1 1/2. Anyone explain this to me? 

Focker

Not osmosis, as many think.
But diffusion, solutes moving from an area of higher concentration, to an area of lower concentration.  
Some great video lecture(all 4 are worth watching), and stuff here......
http://stellaculinary.com/cooking-videos/food-science-101/fs-002-science-behind-brining-four-part-video-lecture

Toxarch

Like mentioned, it's equilibrium. The salt and water try to become equal inside and outside the cells. So the salt water moves into the cells. Once equilibrium is reached, the brining is done. You can brine longer, but it's not actually doing anything.

NewNashEgg

Osmosis must occur before diffusion.  Osmosis of water turn diffusion of particles.  Salt and Sugar suck. If osmosis didn't occur initially it would pull water out of the meat. No?  But then dry brining makes me think maybe your right. 

Trying to apply the electrolyte concept from my IV fluids lecture to this concept.  

Focker

NewNashEgg said:

Osmosis must occur before diffusion.  Osmosis of water turn diffusion of particles.  Salt and Sugar suck. If osmosis didn't occur initially it would pull water out of the meat. No?  But then dry brining makes me think maybe your right. 

Trying to apply the electrolyte concept from my IV fluids lecture to this concept.  


No.  
IV solutions use osmosis.  The key here is the tunica intima, or semipermeable membranes of the vessels, capillary walls, and cell membranes of RBCs.  

To save my time, please read link above.

RRP

Focker said:

NewNashEgg said:

Osmosis must occur before diffusion.  Osmosis of water turn diffusion of particles.  Salt and Sugar suck. If osmosis didn't occur initially it would pull water out of the meat. No?  But then dry brining makes me think maybe your right. 

Trying to apply the electrolyte concept from my IV fluids lecture to this concept.  


No.  
IV solutions use osmosis.  The key here is the tunica intima, or semipermeable membranes of the vessels, capillary walls, and cell membranes of RBCs.  

To save my time, please read link above.

DAMN MAN...you just gave me a headache!!! Why not jump in on the Griswold thread? Or were my accolades to you giving you a headache? !

Focker

@RRP,
Oh no, you're too kind.  I'm too embarassed to show pics.
Glad you enjoy the old Wagner pan.  And for the record buddy, it could have easily stayed in the collection.  I just wanted you to have it. 

blasting

MaC122 said:

I cant figure out why cooking time is cut down after you brine. What should take 3 hours takes 1 1/2. Anyone explain this to me? 

Hi @MaC122

I've done a couple side by side comparisons, and the brine always adds time, not shortens it in my experience.  That is with butts - never done a side by side with turkey, so maybe that's a different story?

bgebrent

Brining butts and turkey improves the flavor, and alters the cook time to finish.  @blasting documented the way way we both brine butts with good success.  I also find success brining turkey.  Find what you like!

nolaegghead

Where are the muthafkn scientists when you need them?

jeffwit

Thanks for all the info. I think I'm starting to understand. You might say I've osmose got it, but I'm still a little diffused.

bgebrent

Scientist here brother @nolaegghead, osmolarity, influx and equilibrium have been explained well.  Wet brining results in increased moisture and salinity,dry brining results in increased salinity.  Both work in my experience.  And the timing is affected by the protein in question.  Equilibrium explains all brining, which is why both wet and dry work.  And is why dry works a little better.  You bait me my friend!  

Focker

Toxarch said:

Like mentioned, it's equilibrium. The salt and water try to become equal inside and outside the cells. So the salt water moves into the cells. Once equilibrium is reached, the brining is done. You can brine longer, but it's not actually doing anything.

It's gradient brining, not equilibrium brining.  Most don't go through the process of calculating an equilibrium brine.  A wet cure/pickle, would be an example of generalized equilibrium brine.  

The brines we typically use for enhancing moisture and flavor of grilled proteins use a higher salt content than the desired salt content of your finished product.  How is that equilibrium?
  
Again, please read link above.

I wish folks would at least pay attention and read a thread they choose to participate, and provide inaccurate assumptions in. 

Toxarch

Focker said:

Toxarch said:

Like mentioned, it's equilibrium. The salt and water try to become equal inside and outside the cells. So the salt water moves into the cells. Once equilibrium is reached, the brining is done. You can brine longer, but it's not actually doing anything.

It's gradient brining, not equilibrium brining.  Most don't go through the process of calculating an equilibrium brine.  A wet cure/pickle, would be an example of generalized equilibrium brine.  

The brines we typically use for enhancing moisture and flavor of grilled proteins use a higher salt content than the desired salt content of your finished product.  How is that equilibrium?
  
Again, please read link above.

I wish folks would at least pay attention and read a thread they choose to participate, and provide inaccurate assumptions in. 

I never said "equilibrium brining", I said equilibrium. The OP asked how it worked and I gave a simple answer of how it worked. If you make a solution the same weight as the meat, then the salt, sugar (and whatever else you added) will diffuse into the meat and reach equilibrium inside the meat and outside in the brine solution.

A gradient brine is simple to make but you have to pull the meat at the right time or the meat turns too salty. The brine tries to reach equilibrium but you stop it before that point.

An equilibrium brine is very calculated to make but there is no timing needed. You know it will only brine the meat so much so you can brine as long as you want.

I wish folks wouldn't assume that they are the only one who is correct and that everyone brines the way that they think is the only way to brine. You may use a simplistic gradient brine. Some use an equilibrium brine so the salinity added to the meat is known and don't have to babysit their meat. Both are correct ways to brine.

Focker

Toxarch said:

Focker said:

Toxarch said:

Like mentioned, it's equilibrium. The salt and water try to become equal inside and outside the cells. So the salt water moves into the cells. Once equilibrium is reached, the brining is done. You can brine longer, but it's not actually doing anything.

Whoa Sally, don't get your g-string in a knot over this.

No, it's not.  Brining is not done when gradient brining.  And yes, if you do brine longer, it will do something.

I'm the only one here that equilibrium brines, and use solely for curing, or injecting.  It would take closer to a week, even more, to equilibrium brine for grilled proteins.  I have injected chickens and turkeys with an equilibrium brine with good results.  Injecting speeds up the process.    

Do you brine your proteins for extended periods of time like you would do in curing?  I've hung around bbq forums and smokingmeatforum for awhile and haven't seen anyone try this.  But if you're up for a lengthy science project, get a salinity meter and knock yourself out.  Hell, peeps are SV'ing briskets to try to make them better.  Next comes the crock pot.  lol   

Try doubling or tripling your usual gradient brine time, and report back.  

The Na and Cl ions are diffused unevenly, higher concentration towards the exterior of the protein.  

The negative Cl ions repel in the muscle fibers, creating a space that fills with water. 

The rinsing step and resting period help equilibriate.  Similar to letting your protein rest after taking it off the egg.  

As stated, please don't waste my time, read the link above and this for starters.  Thanks

  

GRADIENT BRINING (TRADITIONAL APPROACH)

Next, lets take a look at the traditional gradient method, which gets its name from the fact that a salt gradient is being used to brine the food, meaning the brine contains a much higher salt content than what you would want your finished food product to contain. When using this approach, a gradient brine will typically contain about 5-10% salt, based on the water’s weight. The food is then placed in the brine for as a little as 15 minutes and as long as a few days.

But just because you roast a piece of beef in a 500ºF/260ºC degree oven doesn’t mean that’s your desired finished temperature. Chances are you’ll be serving the beef at a much lower internal temperature or 135-160ºF/57-71ºC. Just like you’re using a temperature gradient to transfer heat to food when cooking in a high temp oven, with the gradient brining method, the same holds true with the salt content. This is why when the food product is removed from the brine, it is immediately rinsed or soaked in cold water to remove excess sodium from the surface.

This rinsing step is then followed by a resting period which allows the salt gradient to form an equilibrium as the sodium and chloride ions finish diffusion. When you pull a protein from a gradient style brine, the sodium and chloride ions will be diffused unevenly throughout the protein, with a higher concentration towards the exterior of the meat.

When the meat is rinsed and allowed to rest for a given period of time (usually a few hours to overnight), the remaining sodium and chloride ions will finish diffusing and more or less equilibrate. Interesting enough, this is the same reason why meat is rested after cooking, but again, because salt diffusion takes about 100-1,000 times longer than heat diffusion, you usually only need to rest meat for 5-30 minutes, where as a brined protein will need to rest anywhere from 2-24 hours, after being removed from the brine.

EQUILIBRIUM BRINING (MODERNIST CUISINE)

Just like cooking in a high temp oven requires timing and intuition, gradient brining is to high heat cooking as equilibrium is to the control and precision of sous vide. And just like cooking sous vide, the equilibrium method does take longer, but is also much more accurate, taking the cook's "intuition" out of the equation. The amount of salt dissolved in the brine is only enough for the interior of the protein to reach the precise amount of salt desired, making it impossible to over brine.

blind99

@focker thanks for the above link.  it's by far the most detailed writeup on brining I've seen.

I just wish they'd add:

tl;dr Na and Cl are magical ions for meat.

Focker

blind99 said:

@focker thanks for the above link.  it's by far the most detailed writeup on brining I've seen.

I just wish they'd add:

tl;dr Na and Cl are magical ions for meat.

No problem, Chef Jacob couldn't have done it better.  

And aside from work, I don't think I've corrected as many peeps with science in one sitting thanks to him..... a personal best.  j/k

Toxarch

Focker said:

Whoa Sally, don't get your g-string in a knot over this.

No, it's not.  Brining is not done when gradient brining.  And yes, if you do brine longer, it will do something.

I'm the only one here that equilibrium brines, and use solely for curing, or injecting.  It would take closer to a week, even more, to equilibrium brine for grilled proteins.  I have injected chickens and turkeys with an equilibrium brine with good results.  Injecting speeds up the process.    

Do you brine your proteins for extended periods of time like you would do in curing?  I've hung around bbq forums and smokingmeatforum for awhile and haven't seen anyone try this.  But if you're up for a lengthy science project, get a salinity meter and knock yourself out.  Hell, peeps are SV'ing briskets to try to make them better.  Next comes the crock pot.  lol   

Try doubling or tripling your usual gradient brine time, and report back.  

The Na and Cl ions are diffused unevenly, higher concentration towards the exterior of the protein.  

The negative Cl ions repel in the muscle fibers, creating a space that fills with water. 

The rinsing step and resting period help equilibriate.  Similar to letting your protein rest after taking it off the egg.  

As stated, please don't waste my time, read the link above and this for starters.  Thanks

  

GRADIENT BRINING (TRADITIONAL APPROACH)

Next, lets take a look at the traditional gradient method, which gets its name from the fact that a salt gradient is being used to brine the food, meaning the brine contains a much higher salt content than what you would want your finished food product to contain. When using this approach, a gradient brine will typically contain about 5-10% salt, based on the water’s weight. The food is then placed in the brine for as a little as 15 minutes and as long as a few days.

But just because you roast a piece of beef in a 500ºF/260ºC degree oven doesn’t mean that’s your desired finished temperature. Chances are you’ll be serving the beef at a much lower internal temperature or 135-160ºF/57-71ºC. Just like you’re using a temperature gradient to transfer heat to food when cooking in a high temp oven, with the gradient brining method, the same holds true with the salt content. This is why when the food product is removed from the brine, it is immediately rinsed or soaked in cold water to remove excess sodium from the surface.

This rinsing step is then followed by a resting period which allows the salt gradient to form an equilibrium as the sodium and chloride ions finish diffusion. When you pull a protein from a gradient style brine, the sodium and chloride ions will be diffused unevenly throughout the protein, with a higher concentration towards the exterior of the meat.

When the meat is rinsed and allowed to rest for a given period of time (usually a few hours to overnight), the remaining sodium and chloride ions will finish diffusing and more or less equilibrate. Interesting enough, this is the same reason why meat is rested after cooking, but again, because salt diffusion takes about 100-1,000 times longer than heat diffusion, you usually only need to rest meat for 5-30 minutes, where as a brined protein will need to rest anywhere from 2-24 hours, after being removed from the brine.

EQUILIBRIUM BRINING (MODERNIST CUISINE)

Just like cooking in a high temp oven requires timing and intuition, gradient brining is to high heat cooking as equilibrium is to the control and precision of sous vide. And just like cooking sous vide, the equilibrium method does take longer, but is also much more accurate, taking the cook's "intuition" out of the equation. The amount of salt dissolved in the brine is only enough for the interior of the protein to reach the precise amount of salt desired, making it impossible to over brine.

You clearly don't know what you are doing so please stop trying to tell people how to brine. You are able to copy and paste what you find on the internet but you aren't able to comprehend what it is you are sharing. This is quite evident in your lack of comprehension in what I wrote and your reading stuff that I did not say. You read some stuff online and on forums, that's great, now go back and try to understand what it is you read. You are the one wasting my time.

Focker

I apologize, for moving on from the "osmosis in brining" and lack of a semipermeable membrane concept from two days ago.

Why don't you tell me what brining is?  And we'll go from there. 
We can take this offline, PM me.  I'm all ears my friend. 

tarheelmatt

Hey, the internet told me it works, so that's what's up!!!

jeffwit

Didn't mean to start a war....

Thanks again for all the info. It somewhat makes sense now why it works.