Pizza Dough Plan

4Runner

I'm pretty sure I got this from here but I have never tried making my own dough before.   Here is my recipe and plan and would woe come any advice/input

Pizza Dough

20 ounces (about 4 cups) bread flour, preferably Italian-style "OO"

.4 ounces kosher salt (about 4 teaspoons)

.3 ounces (about 2 teaspoons) instant yeast

13 ounces water

Procedures

1. Combine flour, salt, and yeast in a large bowl and whisk until homogenous. Add water and incorporate into flour using hands until no dry flour remains on bottom of bowl. Cover bowl tightly with plastic wrap and allow to rise at room temperature for 8 to 12 hours.

2. Turn dough out onto lightly floured surface and divide into four even balls. Place each in a covered quart-sized deli container or in a zipper-lock freezer bag. Place in refrigerator and allow to rise at least 2 more days, and up to 4. Remove from refrigerator, shape into balls, and allow to rest at room temperature for at least 2 hours before baking.

jtcBoynton

There are lots of differing recipes for pizza dough. Please report back how well this one works. It does seem like the initial room temp rise is very long. I usually see a first rise of 1-2 hours for doughs that will be refrigerated for a slow rise.

4Runner

Will do.  Thanks for the reply. 

ChokeOnSmoke

I do what this guy says.  He's clearly spend his life mastering pizza making.
http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm
Here's the part of pizza making that I pay most attention to:

• Autolyse - Autolyse is a fancy word that just means one simple thing. The flour and water should sit together for at least 20 minutes before kneading begins.  It's a CRITICAL step. Some say that you should mix just the flour and water together, then after 20 minutes add the salt and yeast, then mix. Others say you can add all the ingredients at the beginning. I have found very little difference.

  • Pour all the ingredients into the mixer, except just use 75% of the flour for now. So all of the water, salt, Instant dry Yeast (if used)  and 75%  of the flour are put into the mixer.  Everything should be room temperature or a bit cooler.

  • There is no need to dissolve the yeast in warm water or feed it sugar. 'Proofing' the yeast was probably required decades ago, but I've never had yeast that didn't activate. The yeast feeds on the flour so you don't need to put in sugar. The proofing step that you see in many recipes is really an old wives tale at this point.

  • Mix on lowest speed for 1-2 minutes or until completely blended. At this stage you should have a mix that is drier  than a batter, but wetter  than a dough. Closer to batter probably. 

  • Cover and Let it rest for 20 minutes. One of the most important things I've found is that these rest periods have a huge impact on the final product. I've seen so much arguing online about the proper flour for making pizza. "You need super high protein flour to get the right structure for a pizza dough". People argue endlessly about brands and minor changes in flour blends, types of water, etc. A lot of this is myth and a big waste of time. The autolyse period is FAR more important to creating structured gluten development than is the starting protein percentage. Autolyse and knead properly and AP flour will produce a great pizza with a lot of structure. Do these steps poorly and bread or high gluten flour will not help you at ALL. This step reminds me of mixing pie dough. After you add the water to pie dough, it's crumbly. But after sitting for 20 minutes, it's a dough. The water takes time to soak in, and when it does it transforms the pie dough. It's really a similar thing here with pizza dough

XC242

When do you add the final 25%?

4Runner

Thanks for the info but what @XC242 posted??.   Thanks again.  

4Runner

and the rest of the story.  Got it from the link provided. 

• Wet Kneading

  • Start Mixing on Low speed for 8 minutes. 5 minutes into it start adding flour gradually.

  • This part is critical and it's something that I did not understand at all until relatively recently: Even if the dough is very sticky - that is it does not have enough flour in it to form a ball and it is still halfway between a batter and a dough - it is still working. This is where MOST of the kneading occurs. The gluten IS working at this point even though it's not a dough yet. 

    • If you are using a KA, and you lift the hook, the dough should fall off by itself. The hook should look like its going through the dough, and not pushing the dough around.  It should be that wet until nearly the end.

    • With the DLX you can play with the scrapper and the roller, pressing them together to allow the dough to extrude through the gaps. This really works the dough. The DLX mechanism is totally different than a regular mixer. 

  • After the first 6-8 minutes increase the speed of the mixer slightly. I never go higher than 1/3 of the dial on my mixer. Keep in mind that in the old days they mixed this by hand (Anthony at Una Pizza Napoletana in NYC still does). You should add most of the remaining flour. But you still want a very wet dough, so don't go crazy. 

  • At some point during this process the dough should be getting much firmer and should form more of a ball.  Mix another minute or so a this stage  You may find that the dough is sticking to the roller /hook and not really working too much at this point.  This is why it's so important to do most of the mixing at the earlier, wetter stages.  Once the dough is at this point, it is done. My recommendation is this: DON'T BE A SLAVE TO RECIPES AND PERCENTAGES. It's fine to use the spreadsheet or other measures as a guideline, but you have to judge how much flour goes into the dough by feeling it. Do NOT force more flour into the mix just to reach a number. If the dough feels good and soft and you still have flour you have not put in, don't sweat it. Leave it out. In the end you need a wet dough. In fact, even the dough has formed more of ball, if you let it sit, it should spread out a little and look a little limp. This is what you want, not a tight ball, but a slack, wet soft dough.

  • One of the best ways to see how your dough is doing is to sprinkle a little flour on in and just feel it. It should feel baby bottom soft. If you don't sprinkle flour it will just feel sticky and not look smooth. But sprinkle a tiny bit of flour and now its soft and smooth. This is what you want. This is a much gentler recipe than most and it shows in the final dough.

  • With Hi Gluten flours a commercial mixer and a dry dough, you will find that the dough is tough to work and consequently both the machine and the dough will get very hot. Commercial bakers compensate by starting with cool water and by measuring the temperature of the dough as they go. The procedures I'm outlining don't require this. The wet knead technique and the lower protein all but eliminates the friction. You can expect the dough to heat only about 3-4 F while mixing, so it's not an issue.

4Runner

And that site is bookmarked @ChokeOnSmoke  thanks for sharing. 

ChokeOnSmoke

4Runner said:

And that site is bookmarked @ChokeOnSmoke  thanks for sharing. 

Hope it helps.  It's definitely helped me.  These "wetter" doughs allow me to crank my egg up to 750-850F (with my pizza stone in the 600+ range) and not burn the bottom of the pie at all.  I'm still experimenting and every time I make a pizza I go hotter (and more importantly, let my stone heat up more/longer).  I'm starting to make some pretty good stuff.
Good luck!

4Runner

ChokeOnSmoke said:

4Runner said:

And that site is bookmarked @ChokeOnSmoke  thanks for sharing. 

Hope it helps.  It's definitely helped me.  These "wetter" doughs allow me to crank my egg up to 750-850F (with my pizza stone in the 600+ range) and not burn the bottom of the pie at all.  I'm still experimenting and every time I make a pizza I go hotter (and more importantly, let my stone heat up more/longer).  I'm starting to make some pretty good stuff.
Good luck!

Do you mind sharing your measurements with me?

ChokeOnSmoke

4Runner said:

ChokeOnSmoke said:

4Runner said:

And that site is bookmarked @ChokeOnSmoke  thanks for sharing. 

Hope it helps.  It's definitely helped me.  These "wetter" doughs allow me to crank my egg up to 750-850F (with my pizza stone in the 600+ range) and not burn the bottom of the pie at all.  I'm still experimenting and every time I make a pizza I go hotter (and more importantly, let my stone heat up more/longer).  I'm starting to make some pretty good stuff.
Good luck!

Do you mind sharing your measurements with me?

This will make one 12" pie:
1.25 cups flour
1/2 cup water
3/4 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon instant yeast

Combine 75% flour, water, salt & yeast. 
Mix on lowest speed for 1-2 minutes (Should be wet, consistency of batter). 
Cover and let sit for 20 minutes.  
Now mix on low for 5 minutes. 
Start adding the remaining 25% flour for the next 3 minutes with increased speed to 1/3 power. 
Let rest 20 minutes. 
Hand kneed into a ball and chill overnight or up to 6 days. 
Take out of fridge 90 minutes before use. 

* this is my summary of what I learned from that site and adjusted for one pizza. I'm still experimenting so I'm sure I'll be modifying slightly as I go...

Happy cooking!

4Runner

ChokeOnSmoke said:

4Runner said:

ChokeOnSmoke said:

4Runner said:

And that site is bookmarked @ChokeOnSmoke  thanks for sharing. 

Hope it helps.  It's definitely helped me.  These "wetter" doughs allow me to crank my egg up to 750-850F (with my pizza stone in the 600+ range) and not burn the bottom of the pie at all.  I'm still experimenting and every time I make a pizza I go hotter (and more importantly, let my stone heat up more/longer).  I'm starting to make some pretty good stuff.
Good luck!

Do you mind sharing your measurements with me?

This will make one 12" pie:
1.25 cups flour
1/2 cup water
3/4 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon instant yeast

Combine 75% flour, water, salt & yeast. 
Mix on lowest speed for 1-2 minutes (Should be wet, consistency of batter). 
Cover and let sit for 20 minutes.  
Now mix on low for 5 minutes. 
Start adding the remaining 25% flour for the next 3 minutes with increased speed to 1/3 power. 
Let rest 20 minutes. 
Hand kneed into a ball and chill overnight or up to 6 days. 
Take out of fridge 90 minutes before use. 

* this is my summary of what I learned from that site and adjusted for one pizza. I'm still experimenting so I'm sure I'll be modifying slightly as I go...

Happy cooking!

Thanks.  I'm going to times 4 it.  

ChokeOnSmoke

Let me know how it work for you. Feedback is always good. 

4Runner

ChokeOnSmoke said:

4Runner said:

ChokeOnSmoke said:

4Runner said:

And that site is bookmarked @ChokeOnSmoke  thanks for sharing. 

Hope it helps.  It's definitely helped me.  These "wetter" doughs allow me to crank my egg up to 750-850F (with my pizza stone in the 600+ range) and not burn the bottom of the pie at all.  I'm still experimenting and every time I make a pizza I go hotter (and more importantly, let my stone heat up more/longer).  I'm starting to make some pretty good stuff.
Good luck!

Do you mind sharing your measurements with me?

This will make one 12" pie:
1.25 cups flour
1/2 cup water
3/4 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon instant yeast

Combine 75% flour, water, salt & yeast. 
Mix on lowest speed for 1-2 minutes (Should be wet, consistency of batter). 
Cover and let sit for 20 minutes.  
Now mix on low for 5 minutes. 
Start adding the remaining 25% flour for the next 3 minutes with increased speed to 1/3 power. 
Let rest 20 minutes. 
Hand kneed into a ball and chill overnight or up to 6 days. 
Take out of fridge 90 minutes before use. 

* this is my summary of what I learned from that site and adjusted for one pizza. I'm still experimenting so I'm sure I'll be modifying slightly as I go...

Happy cooking!

So far so good @ChokeOnSmoke   I took your measurements and made 4 pizza balls.  I think my dough could be a bit wetter but seems like a good first effort.  I'll post pick soon. 

4Runner

QDude

ChokeOnSmoke said:

I do what this guy says.  He's clearly spend his life mastering pizza making.
http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm
Here's the part of pizza making that I pay most attention to:

• Autolyse - Autolyse is a fancy word that just means one simple thing. The flour and water should sit together for at least 20 minutes before kneading begins.  It's a CRITICAL step. Some say that you should mix just the flour and water together, then after 20 minutes add the salt and yeast, then mix. Others say you can add all the ingredients at the beginning. I have found very little difference.

  • Pour all the ingredients into the mixer, except just use 75% of the flour for now. So all of the water, salt, Instant dry Yeast (if used)  and 75%  of the flour are put into the mixer.  Everything should be room temperature or a bit cooler.

  • There is no need to dissolve the yeast in warm water or feed it sugar. 'Proofing' the yeast was probably required decades ago, but I've never had yeast that didn't activate. The yeast feeds on the flour so you don't need to put in sugar. The proofing step that you see in many recipes is really an old wives tale at this point.

  • Mix on lowest speed for 1-2 minutes or until completely blended. At this stage you should have a mix that is drier  than a batter, but wetter  than a dough. Closer to batter probably. 

  • Cover and Let it rest for 20 minutes. One of the most important things I've found is that these rest periods have a huge impact on the final product. I've seen so much arguing online about the proper flour for making pizza. "You need super high protein flour to get the right structure for a pizza dough". People argue endlessly about brands and minor changes in flour blends, types of water, etc. A lot of this is myth and a big waste of time. The autolyse period is FAR more important to creating structured gluten development than is the starting protein percentage. Autolyse and knead properly and AP flour will produce a great pizza with a lot of structure. Do these steps poorly and bread or high gluten flour will not help you at ALL. This step reminds me of mixing pie dough. After you add the water to pie dough, it's crumbly. But after sitting for 20 minutes, it's a dough. The water takes time to soak in, and when it does it transforms the pie dough. It's really a similar thing here with pizza dough

Do you think this recipe would work with the Caputo 00 flour?

4Runner

Yes.  He addresses flour and you may be surprised with his opinion.  Give it a read.  

ChokeOnSmoke

QDude said:

ChokeOnSmoke said:

I do what this guy says.  He's clearly spend his life mastering pizza making.
http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm
Here's the part of pizza making that I pay most attention to:

• Autolyse - Autolyse is a fancy word that just means one simple thing. The flour and water should sit together for at least 20 minutes before kneading begins.  It's a CRITICAL step. Some say that you should mix just the flour and water together, then after 20 minutes add the salt and yeast, then mix. Others say you can add all the ingredients at the beginning. I have found very little difference.

  • Pour all the ingredients into the mixer, except just use 75% of the flour for now. So all of the water, salt, Instant dry Yeast (if used)  and 75%  of the flour are put into the mixer.  Everything should be room temperature or a bit cooler.

  • There is no need to dissolve the yeast in warm water or feed it sugar. 'Proofing' the yeast was probably required decades ago, but I've never had yeast that didn't activate. The yeast feeds on the flour so you don't need to put in sugar. The proofing step that you see in many recipes is really an old wives tale at this point.

  • Mix on lowest speed for 1-2 minutes or until completely blended. At this stage you should have a mix that is drier  than a batter, but wetter  than a dough. Closer to batter probably. 

  • Cover and Let it rest for 20 minutes. One of the most important things I've found is that these rest periods have a huge impact on the final product. I've seen so much arguing online about the proper flour for making pizza. "You need super high protein flour to get the right structure for a pizza dough". People argue endlessly about brands and minor changes in flour blends, types of water, etc. A lot of this is myth and a big waste of time. The autolyse period is FAR more important to creating structured gluten development than is the starting protein percentage. Autolyse and knead properly and AP flour will produce a great pizza with a lot of structure. Do these steps poorly and bread or high gluten flour will not help you at ALL. This step reminds me of mixing pie dough. After you add the water to pie dough, it's crumbly. But after sitting for 20 minutes, it's a dough. The water takes time to soak in, and when it does it transforms the pie dough. It's really a similar thing here with pizza dough

Do you think this recipe would work with the Caputo 00 flour?

I use Caputo 00, but acccording to Jeff's research, it doesn't seem to make a huge difference which one you use.

ChokeOnSmoke

4Runner said:

Those look nice.  Well done.  Hopefully the final product will be good as well!

Thatgrimguy

Bookmarked. Lots of great dough advice!!  

QDude

Is this a cold fermentation process?

4Runner

Yes.

4Runner

@ChokeOnSmoke - I'm just going to pretend my pizza cook last night never happened.   I have 4 new ones in the container now.  I upped the water, reduced the flour and yeast a bit.   Will see how it goes this round.   

TTUEgghead

ChokeOnSmoke said:

I do what this guy says.  He's clearly spend his life mastering pizza making.
http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm
Here's the part of pizza making that I pay most attention to:

• Autolyse - Autolyse is a fancy word that just means one simple thing. The flour and water should sit together for at least 20 minutes before kneading begins.  It's a CRITICAL step. Some say that you should mix just the flour and water together, then after 20 minutes add the salt and yeast, then mix. Others say you can add all the ingredients at the beginning. I have found very little difference.

  • Pour all the ingredients into the mixer, except just use 75% of the flour for now. So all of the water, salt, Instant dry Yeast (if used)  and 75%  of the flour are put into the mixer.  Everything should be room temperature or a bit cooler.

  • There is no need to dissolve the yeast in warm water or feed it sugar. 'Proofing' the yeast was probably required decades ago, but I've never had yeast that didn't activate. The yeast feeds on the flour so you don't need to put in sugar. The proofing step that you see in many recipes is really an old wives tale at this point.

  • Mix on lowest speed for 1-2 minutes or until completely blended. At this stage you should have a mix that is drier  than a batter, but wetter  than a dough. Closer to batter probably. 

  • Cover and Let it rest for 20 minutes. One of the most important things I've found is that these rest periods have a huge impact on the final product. I've seen so much arguing online about the proper flour for making pizza. "You need super high protein flour to get the right structure for a pizza dough". People argue endlessly about brands and minor changes in flour blends, types of water, etc. A lot of this is myth and a big waste of time. The autolyse period is FAR more important to creating structured gluten development than is the starting protein percentage. Autolyse and knead properly and AP flour will produce a great pizza with a lot of structure. Do these steps poorly and bread or high gluten flour will not help you at ALL. This step reminds me of mixing pie dough. After you add the water to pie dough, it's crumbly. But after sitting for 20 minutes, it's a dough. The water takes time to soak in, and when it does it transforms the pie dough. It's really a similar thing here with pizza dough

Let me be the next to thank you for posting this link.  I have been wanting to up my game with my pizza dough for a while.  Thus far I have been nibbling around the edges, making a few small modifications, without any significant changes in the end product.  I've been reading another forum on pizza making and they are really fanatical about certain things that this guy says aren't as important as some would say they are.  Some of it seemed a bit ridiculous but I was actually considering buying a scale to make sure my measurements are perfect.  It sounds like that is a bit over the top.  

One stupid question I have:  What do you do to take the pizza on and off the egg?  I typically cook around 450 or 500, using a baking stone, and I load up the pizza on the stone before I put it on the grill, then remove it along with the baking stone.  If I try to cook my next pie at 600 or higher, I think the stone will be too hot to handle.  So I have considered buying a pizza peel, but I have worried about transitioning the pizza from the peel to the hot grill without it falling apart.  I also bought one of those perforated metal plates to cook on, my first attempt with that method was OK but not really an improvement on what I usually do.  

Just curious to hear from you and others as to how you approach this.  

Thatgrimguy

Pizza peel.   If you want the easiest way you can use parchment paper. I cook all my pizzas with parchment. Build them on it, trim the edges and throw it right on the stone. Cook the whole way with it there. I usually have some burn up around the pizza but the ashes don't hurt anything.

jtcBoynton

You need to use a pizza peel to slide the pizza onto the preheated stone. The stone needs to be throughly preheated before cooking on it. Never handle a hot pizza stone.  The pizza will slide off the peel - it just takes a little practice and something between the dough and the peel to reduce the drag (semolina, cornmeal, or parchment paper).   

ChokeOnSmoke

4Runner said:

@ChokeOnSmoke - I'm just going to pretend my pizza cook last night never happened.   I have 4 new ones in the container now.  I upped the water, reduced the flour and yeast a bit.   Will see how it goes this round.   

@4Runner  Sorry to hear that. Burned the crap out of the bottom?  Keep trying, its worth the effort in the end!

ChokeOnSmoke

TTUEgghead said:

One stupid question I have:  What do you do to take the pizza on and off the egg?  I typically cook around 450 or 500, using a baking stone, and I load up the pizza on the stone before I put it on the grill, then remove it along with the baking stone.  If I try to cook my next pie at 600 or higher, I think the stone will be too hot to handle.  So I have considered buying a pizza peel, but I have worried about transitioning the pizza from the peel to the hot grill without it falling apart.  I also bought one of those perforated metal plates to cook on, my first attempt with that method was OK but not really an improvement on what I usually do.  

Just curious to hear from you and others as to how you approach this.  

I use a wooden pizza peel.  Slap some flour on it and rub it in with your hand.  I don't use parchment paper as I've never had one stick.  As long as you have your ingredients all cut up and ready to go and assemble your pie in a few minutes time, you should be fine.  I give the peel a little shake ever so often just to make sure it's not sticking.  Once assembled, slide it right onto the hot pizza stone.  You want to preheat your stone for a while before putting the wet dough on it (then it won't stick).  I'm up to 45 minutes of preheating before I slide the uncooked pizza on.

4Runner

ChokeOnSmoke said:

4Runner said:

@ChokeOnSmoke - I'm just going to pretend my pizza cook last night never happened.   I have 4 new ones in the container now.  I upped the water, reduced the flour and yeast a bit.   Will see how it goes this round.   

@4Runner  Sorry to hear that. Burned the crap out of the bottom?  Keep trying, its worth the effort in the end!

@ChokeOnSmoke - making progress.  The dough and I didn't get along the first go.  I just couldn't manipulate it the way I wanted too.   I did produce 1 pie that my wife ate and she liked it.   The second one I burned the crap out of the parchment paper and the crust.  No more parchment paper for me.  Old school from here on out.  Then, all the crap stuck on the stone and that was when we punted.   Made a second batch of dough with the plan to just shape and not cook.  First two dough balls didn't work.  I did them on separate days.   I just worked the last two today, so these sat in the fridge the longest, and they were much more manageable.  I actually made a 12" pie.   Success!   Now, according to Jeff's website, mine are waaaaaay over rising.  See the pic on his site of over risen dough in the container and that is exactly what mine looks like....first and second batch.  No clue on what to do about that.   I'm taking baby steps.  I'm going to attempt another batch of dough and see if I can end up with dough that I can stretch to a 12" pie.  If so, then I will be ready for a production run.    I'll keep you posted.   Appreciate the comments.  

4Runner

Here was my success.   

ChokeOnSmoke

4Runner said:

Here was my success.   

That crust looks good, how'd the cook go?