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Carriage Bolts for 4x4 in Table Xl size cooker

Charcoal_AddictCharcoal_Addict Posts: 227
edited July 2012 in EGG Table Forum
I won't mention the brand. The cooker is red, 1 inch thicker than the BGE XL and about 50 lbs heavier than the XL Egg. The table requirements will be the same as the XL. I've seen a lot of tables with screws used to fasten the frame to the 4x4. A lot of wood working sites say to use carriage bolt. My table will be made with cedar. It will be on 4 heavy duty 4 inch casters for easy movement for cleaning. 2x4's will be used for the rest of the structural framing. I purchased a Kreg Jig to keep the screws hidden. Do you guys think carriage bolts will be necessary attach the 2x4's to the 4x4 corners or will the Kreg joints be strong enough to fasten to the 4x4 for the purpose of a table for a 250 Pound XL sized cooker?
2x Kamado Joe Big Joes + Cyber Q Wifi + Themapen - Pizza Steel + BGE Paella Pan + BGE Ash Tools + Woo2 + Open Bar Fire Ring
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Comments

  • stikestike Posts: 15,597
    edited July 2012
    you don't need 4x4s, if you want to go smaller.
    not sure how many carriage bolts you are using.  they are overkill, if you are concerned about strength.  250 pounds is nothing.

    your biggest issue is a joint that does not rack.  one carriage bolt would allow racking, but it would be stronger  than required in order to bear the weight, certainly.  you'd need two in order to minimize the racking.

    don't know how many screws you are considering for the other option, but if they are long enough, a pair would be fine too.  too many would actually cause potential problems with splitting, so don't over correct.

    would be better if we could see a sketch of the connection you are talking about.

    again, you could literally get away with 1x1 corner posts structurally.  anything bigger than that is for making the connection easier, and for 'looks'.  in my mind, 4x4 would seem a little fat. 3x3 would be my inclination.  screws would be fine too

    but even then, too many screws, or a joint which allows racking, can be a problem.

    can't be definitive without seeing the joint
    ed egli avea del cul fatto trombetta -Dante
  • The Kreg Jig will use 2 1/2 blue coats to join the 2x4. I'm thinking about using an all 2x4 frame for the job. Using L shaped corners. Kreg jig have a standard setting for 2 screws per a 2 x 4 section.
    2x Kamado Joe Big Joes + Cyber Q Wifi + Themapen - Pizza Steel + BGE Paella Pan + BGE Ash Tools + Woo2 + Open Bar Fire Ring
  • nolaeggheadnolaegghead Posts: 20,103
    Use glue or notch your joints.  You don't need carriage bolts.  The Kreg screws should be fine.
    ______________________________________________
    This is my signature line just so you're not confused.
    Large and Medium BGE, Kamado Joe Jr., smoker with a 5k btu AC, gas grill, fire pit, pack of angry cats, two turntables and a microphone, my friend.
    New Orleans, LA - we know how to eat 

  • Thanks guys. I was think the carriage bolts will be overkill. I want this table to be pretty with no screws visable. Carriage bolts are about as ugly as it gets. Looking at the BGE and Primo sites, there's lots of tables out there that only use 2x4 with XL cookers that look very stable. To lower the stress on corners I am thinking of using a second 2x4 spaced 3 1/2 inches appart from the outside rail to double the stregth on the outside edges of the frame. Lucky over kill but it may offer more peace of mind to prevent racking when moving the table.
    2x Kamado Joe Big Joes + Cyber Q Wifi + Themapen - Pizza Steel + BGE Paella Pan + BGE Ash Tools + Woo2 + Open Bar Fire Ring
  • stikestike Posts: 15,597
    fwiw, you have very very little stress on any of these components.  just because we think 250pounds is heavy, doesn't mean the wood agrees.  even the cheapest/weakest wood (PT) can handle much much more stress.

    i frankly think the extra post mid span is unnecessary.  it actually has the potential to weaken things before it makes anything stronger.  your corners are bearing little more than 60 some-odd pounds each. way under the limit for any of your components.  they won't prevent racking really.  the connections are the only thing that will do that, unless you introduced diagonals somewhere, which don't exactly look great
    ed egli avea del cul fatto trombetta -Dante
  • Do you guys think 6 casters will be neccessity for 6 foot table.
    2x Kamado Joe Big Joes + Cyber Q Wifi + Themapen - Pizza Steel + BGE Paella Pan + BGE Ash Tools + Woo2 + Open Bar Fire Ring
  • Daveh1976Daveh1976 Posts: 62

    Screws are typically fine.  Where it calls for a carriage bolt I would trpically use 2-3 2.5" deck screws,  Using pockets screws you may want to put about 4-6 in if you have the space.

     

    If you do use a carriage bolt with cedar, be sure to use a SS bolt or it will turn your cedar black over time.

  • I am thinking of using 4x4 even if they are overkill. Two 2x4 glued and screwed together are stronger but not as pretty as a solid 4x4. Which would make more sense for a 2x4. 4 5/16 carriage bolts or 2 3/4 inch carriage bolts. I'm thinking 4 carriage bolts will weaken the wood so two would be better but correct me if I am wrong.
    2x Kamado Joe Big Joes + Cyber Q Wifi + Themapen - Pizza Steel + BGE Paella Pan + BGE Ash Tools + Woo2 + Open Bar Fire Ring
  • I am thinking of using 4x4 even if they are overkill. Two 2x4 glued and screwed together are stronger but not as pretty as a solid 4x4. Which would make more sense for a 2x4. 4 5/16 carriage bolts or 2 3/4 inch carriage bolts. I'm thinking 4 carriage bolts will weaken the wood so two would be better but correct me if I am wrong.

    Correction. I meant 3/8 not 3/4. Stainless. Looking at most deck building sites they seem to use carriage bolts in pairs in the dead center of the stock pieces being joined. I'm pretty sure if it's good enought for a deck and a bunk bed to use two carriage bolts then it would be good enough for Q. I seen guys use 4 carriage bolts on their tables but I think this would make for weak joints.
    2x Kamado Joe Big Joes + Cyber Q Wifi + Themapen - Pizza Steel + BGE Paella Pan + BGE Ash Tools + Woo2 + Open Bar Fire Ring
  • nolaeggheadnolaegghead Posts: 20,103
    Yeah, two will do it.  Consider lag bolts too.   Either way, you can counter sink them and cover with a wood plug to make pretty. 

    If you notch, one will do it.


    ______________________________________________
    This is my signature line just so you're not confused.
    Large and Medium BGE, Kamado Joe Jr., smoker with a 5k btu AC, gas grill, fire pit, pack of angry cats, two turntables and a microphone, my friend.
    New Orleans, LA - we know how to eat 

  • I also saw a trick on "American restoration" on History Channel where they used to saw dust from the dust collection bag of the sander and mixed it with wood glue for the restoration of an 1920's punch bag arcade game. They were able to fill in cracks an holes that were not visible after staining. I'm thinking do using this trick to hide the carriage bolts. Are guys using S 4 S for their cedar tops or Sanded cedar decking boards?
    2x Kamado Joe Big Joes + Cyber Q Wifi + Themapen - Pizza Steel + BGE Paella Pan + BGE Ash Tools + Woo2 + Open Bar Fire Ring
  • stikestike Posts: 15,597
    one bolt in each connection would certainly carry the weight.  but two fasteners are required to keep it from racking.

    two carriage bolts is overkill. and so it kinda logically points to using screws or smaller bolts.

    one bolt all by itself could carry the weight of three or four (or more) XLs.  weight is not the issue.

    and you can't tighten them enough to stop the thing from racking.  all you'd do is crush the wood.

    you need two fasteners  kept far enough apart to keep the thing square.


    ed egli avea del cul fatto trombetta -Dante
  • nolaeggheadnolaegghead Posts: 20,103
    I don't think there's been in the history of egg tables one that wasn't over-built. 

    I like the pocket screws, I think the carriage bolts look Frankenstein-ish.  Glue your joints, couple pocket screws, you don't need to worry about racking.  To support the shelf with the egg, you want some fasteners to be perpendicular to the stress of the downward force.  So just pocket screws on the top and bottom aren't ideal.  If you use a carriage bolt or lag screw anywhere, that would be the place. 

    That said, glue is a wonderful thing for that type of joint. 

    I encourage time-tried techniques in woodworking.  Half lap joints for that shelf. They're easy to make if you have a circular saw and a chisel. 

    http://www.basiccarpentrytechniques.com/Handwork in Wood/images/265-15.png

    In regards to using 4x4 legs, Stike is right, 2x4 is strong enough to support a bunch of eggs.  Personally I like the castle-table look of thick legs.  From a purely aesthetic perspective, I think that's a good move. 

    2 by 4s look, unfortunately like framing lumber.  I try to avoid using that dimension, or hiding it, just so my stuff doesn't look like it's built with framing lumber.

    Racking.  This would be a big problem if you tried pushing your table, loaded down with an egg and with no wheels from the top across a cement driveway.  You put wheels on the table, not a problem.  If you build the naked wiz or BGE design, there's enough support with the top and the end caps to prevent racking even with a single lag screw, provided you have the top and end caps secured flush. 

    I used a different design with floating tenons - the tenons and epoxy holds everything together.  A few pocket screws were used in the sections that were hard to clamp (pocket screws make great clamps for glue joints).

    I would not put 6 legs on a table.  My tale is over 6' wide, and I've had a 170 pound egg, plus 400 pounds of me and a buddy standing on it lowering the egg into it.  Rock solid.  Don't worry about strength.


    image
    ______________________________________________
    This is my signature line just so you're not confused.
    Large and Medium BGE, Kamado Joe Jr., smoker with a 5k btu AC, gas grill, fire pit, pack of angry cats, two turntables and a microphone, my friend.
    New Orleans, LA - we know how to eat 

  • I'm thinking about getting the Kreg HD to eliminate the need for carraige bolts. The Kreg HD and Gorilla glue for the joints would work well. What do you guys think of using the Kreg HD solution over the carriage bolts?
    2x Kamado Joe Big Joes + Cyber Q Wifi + Themapen - Pizza Steel + BGE Paella Pan + BGE Ash Tools + Woo2 + Open Bar Fire Ring
  • nolaeggheadnolaegghead Posts: 20,103
    I think the Kreg HD is perfect for this application.  I just have the regular Kreg pocketscrew set.  If I were building the same thing out of hardwood, I'd say the HD is overkill, but cedar is soft and I think it's perfect.

    I personally don't like Gorilla glue because I've had it fail on me a few times.  It would probably be fine but it's finicky - you need to really follow directions and to me, the water catalyst is hard to control.  I think exterior white glue would be better.  For me making something an outdoor table, I'd use epoxy (and did on two tables), but that's probably overkill.  It's easy for me because I have two 1 gallon pump dispensers of Aeromarine epoxy and it only takes a minute to mix up a couple ounces.  The epoxy joint will never fail, the wood would fail first.

    You could buy an 8 oz kit for 15 bucks and it should do all your joints.  Get the 30 min.
    ______________________________________________
    This is my signature line just so you're not confused.
    Large and Medium BGE, Kamado Joe Jr., smoker with a 5k btu AC, gas grill, fire pit, pack of angry cats, two turntables and a microphone, my friend.
    New Orleans, LA - we know how to eat 

  • cortguitarmancortguitarman Posts: 2,056
    Titebond 3 is the perfect glue for an egg table. Made specifically for exterior applications.
    Mark Annville, PA
  • AleBrewerAleBrewer Posts: 555
    No carriage bolts in my table. I used 4x4's and glued and screwed all joints.

    Thinking about getting one of the Kreg kits though. I had a nice Porter Cable biscuit jointer, but sold it cause it's a pain to glue and clamp and wait for joint to set.
  • nolaeggheadnolaegghead Posts: 20,103

    No carriage bolts in my table. I used 4x4's and glued and screwed all joints.

    Thinking about getting one of the Kreg kits though. I had a nice Porter Cable biscuit jointer, but sold it cause it's a pain to glue and clamp and wait for joint to set.
    I have one of those biscuit jointers, all I use it for is joining small boards into bigger boards.  Keeps the boards aligned while the glue dries.  Edge-glue joints are fabulously strong..

    I think carriage bolt and I think fence post and swing set.  Overkill for tables.
    ______________________________________________
    This is my signature line just so you're not confused.
    Large and Medium BGE, Kamado Joe Jr., smoker with a 5k btu AC, gas grill, fire pit, pack of angry cats, two turntables and a microphone, my friend.
    New Orleans, LA - we know how to eat 

  • cortguitarmancortguitarman Posts: 2,056


    AleBrewer said:

    No carriage bolts in my table. I used 4x4's and glued and screwed all joints.

    Thinking about getting one of the Kreg kits though. I had a nice Porter Cable biscuit jointer, but sold it cause it's a pain to glue and clamp and wait for joint to set.

    I have one of those biscuit jointers, all I use it for is joining small boards into bigger boards.  Keeps the boards aligned while the glue dries.  Edge-glue joints are fabulously strong..

    I think carriage bolt and I think fence post and swing set.  Overkill for tables.
    I agree. Take a look at the dining room table. No carriage bolts.
    Mark Annville, PA
  • The Kreg HD will do the job along with glueing the joints. I will use 4 x 4 for the legs for looks plus they are easier to attach casters vs 2 x 4.

    I changed my mind about aproning the 2 x 4 to the 4 x 4. I'm thinking. about cutting down a cedar 1""x 8" x 8" into a 1 x 4 to clad around the 2 x 4 frames. I want to do this to hide the seems and make the table look less like a 2 by 4 frame.

    The big challenge will be cutting down the 1 x 8 x 8 's. Table saws like to kick back small board on cuts like that. I may ask Home Depot to do the cut since the sheet saw they have are better suited to cutting down thin long stock smoothly.
    2x Kamado Joe Big Joes + Cyber Q Wifi + Themapen - Pizza Steel + BGE Paella Pan + BGE Ash Tools + Woo2 + Open Bar Fire Ring
  • cortguitarmancortguitarman Posts: 2,056
    I wouldn't hesitate to make those rip cuts on my table saw. A good rip blade is key. I use a 30 tooth per inch Freud rip blade. The blade runs about $100 but it is worth it if you do a lot of woodworking. Make sure you have an outfeed setup to avoid the kick back.
    Mark Annville, PA
  • nolaeggheadnolaegghead Posts: 20,103
    I wouldn't hesitate to make those rip cuts on my table saw. A good rip blade is key. I use a 30 tooth per inch Freud rip blade. The blade runs about $100 but it is worth it if you do a lot of woodworking. Make sure you have an outfeed setup to avoid the kick back.
    Have a Forrest Woodworker II blade on mine.  Sucked when I hit my first nail.  Yeah, that out-feed roller table was the best money I ever spent.  I build a lot of stuff using recycled wood that is crooked.  The way I straighten it out (and actually I do this rip for everything), is I use my Festool rail saw to get a straight edge, then run that edge through the table saw.   It's like having a really long jointer (I can cut a perfectly straight 8' cut).


    image
    ______________________________________________
    This is my signature line just so you're not confused.
    Large and Medium BGE, Kamado Joe Jr., smoker with a 5k btu AC, gas grill, fire pit, pack of angry cats, two turntables and a microphone, my friend.
    New Orleans, LA - we know how to eat 

  • cortguitarmancortguitarman Posts: 2,056
    edited July 2012
    @nolaegghead Nice looking Grizzly. How do you like it? I have a Ridgid TS3650 and love it. The Grizzly 14" band saw is in my future plans. I'm in the process of milling down some salvaged white oak that was used as joists in a buddy's front porch of a 100 year old house.
    Mark Annville, PA
  • nolaeggheadnolaegghead Posts: 20,103
    I love it!  3HP 220V magnetic start.  Weighs about 500 pounds, built a mobile base for it.  Trick to perfect cuts, I find, isn't the saw as much as it is setting it up and keeping it properly adjusted.   The riving knife is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

    I have a Grizzly band saw.  I don't know what I'd do without it.  I love beams, I resaw them down to whatever size I want, edge-glue and get boards, etc. 

    Lemme see if I can find a pic.
    ______________________________________________
    This is my signature line just so you're not confused.
    Large and Medium BGE, Kamado Joe Jr., smoker with a 5k btu AC, gas grill, fire pit, pack of angry cats, two turntables and a microphone, my friend.
    New Orleans, LA - we know how to eat 

  • nolaeggheadnolaegghead Posts: 20,103
    Found it.  This is my manbearcave.  Half man, half bear, half cave.


    ______________________________________________
    This is my signature line just so you're not confused.
    Large and Medium BGE, Kamado Joe Jr., smoker with a 5k btu AC, gas grill, fire pit, pack of angry cats, two turntables and a microphone, my friend.
    New Orleans, LA - we know how to eat 

  • cortguitarmancortguitarman Posts: 2,056
    My friend's wife is pregnant. Im planning on resawing the beams and making a toy box for them out of the recycled lumber. I like to build pieces that have a story behind them.

    You couldn't be more right about the setup. The beauty of contractor saws and cabinet saws are the ease in making minute adjustments. Unfortunately my saw doesn't have a riving knife. I added an MJ splitter which has been a great addition. Good to know there is a fellow woodworker here on the forum.

    Mark Annville, PA
  • nolaeggheadnolaegghead Posts: 20,103
    Good to know, I'm really into it.  Made most of the furniture in the house.  I'm just finishing up a couple bookshelves.  Have them in the house with books, just need to make the doors and drawer faces (couple drawers on the bottom).  Did raised panel sides with a door bit set. 

    Here's a couple things I made for the shop.

    Incra router jig/table base, 8' workbench - gluing up a 8.5' bookcase side.


    ______________________________________________
    This is my signature line just so you're not confused.
    Large and Medium BGE, Kamado Joe Jr., smoker with a 5k btu AC, gas grill, fire pit, pack of angry cats, two turntables and a microphone, my friend.
    New Orleans, LA - we know how to eat 

  • nolaeggheadnolaegghead Posts: 20,103
    My friend's wife is pregnant. Im planning on resawing the beams and making a toy box for them out of the recycled lumber. I like to build pieces that have a story behind them. You couldn't be more right about the setup. The beauty of contractor saws and cabinet saws are the ease in making minute adjustments. Unfortunately my saw doesn't have a riving knife. I added an MJ splitter which has been a great addition. Good to know there is a fellow woodworker here on the forum.
    I align the rear of the fence a hair (no more than about 1/64") away from parallel to the blade in the back (wider than the front).  Helps prevent binding/kickback and wood just sails through the saw.

    Ordering one of these next: http://www.grizzly.com/products/15-Planer-with-Spiral-Cutterhead-Polar-Bear-Series-/G0453PX
    ______________________________________________
    This is my signature line just so you're not confused.
    Large and Medium BGE, Kamado Joe Jr., smoker with a 5k btu AC, gas grill, fire pit, pack of angry cats, two turntables and a microphone, my friend.
    New Orleans, LA - we know how to eat 

  • cortguitarmancortguitarman Posts: 2,056

    My friend's wife is pregnant. Im planning on resawing the beams and making a toy box for them out of the recycled lumber. I like to build pieces that have a story behind them.

    You couldn't be more right about the setup. The beauty of contractor saws and cabinet saws are the ease in making minute adjustments. Unfortunately my saw doesn't have a riving knife. I added an MJ splitter which has been a great addition. Good to know there is a fellow woodworker here on the forum.

    I align the rear of the fence a hair (no more than about 1/64") away from parallel to the blade in the back (wider than the front).  Helps prevent binding/kickback and wood just sails through the saw.

    Ordering one of these next: http://www.grizzly.com/products/15-Planer-with-Spiral-Cutterhead-Polar-Bear-Series-/G0453PX
    Do your research. I haven't read any reviews on the planers, but the spiral cutter heads on the jointers did not get good reviews in Wood Magazine. They had the worst snipe of all the machines tested. You've got more going on in your shop than me. My 2 year old twins and a side on grad school don't give me much time in the shop.

    I'm working on a few drawer fronts for my bar. Blanks have been cut for weeks. I just have to set up the router table and get them done.
    Mark Annville, PA
  • nolaeggheadnolaegghead Posts: 20,103
    I read some bad reviews too, but mostly on portable planers with spiral cutterheads.  This one weighs about 700 pounds - not very portable.  Snipe can be magnified by the spiral cutters, but, if you align the in and out feed tables, the pressure rollers (no rubber on these, they're textured steel) keep the wood aligned well, should never be a problem.  They're supposed to be real quiet.  If I hit a nail (I miss them sometimes), I just rotates a few blades.

    My next fun project is going to be a Gibson explorer guitar.  The neck is going to be the toughest part.

    I made this hutch last year for the wife's computer.  Recycled cypress and cedar.

    ______________________________________________
    This is my signature line just so you're not confused.
    Large and Medium BGE, Kamado Joe Jr., smoker with a 5k btu AC, gas grill, fire pit, pack of angry cats, two turntables and a microphone, my friend.
    New Orleans, LA - we know how to eat 

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