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Hot tub method

jerrypjerryp Posts: 221
edited June 2012 in EggHead Forum
Can anyone briefly describe the hot tub method.  I'd like to give it a try.
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Comments

  • Little StevenLittle Steven Posts: 26,066

    Season the meat. Put it in a foodsaver bag and seal it without full vacuum (just cause you will sqish the meat under full) or use a zip lock. Put it in a pot with hot water 100* to 120* for about 40 minutes per inch of thickness. You might need to add some hot tapwater to keep it above 100. Remove and grill.

    Steve 

    Caledon, ON

     

  • BjorgBjorg Posts: 231
    Or use a cock pot at the keep warm setting for it to remain at 100
    Quebec - Canada
  • Little StevenLittle Steven Posts: 26,066
    I don't have one of them...no matter what stike says :D

    Steve 

    Caledon, ON

     

  • jerrypjerryp Posts: 221
    so it's essemtially sous vide without the costly equipment.
  • billybonbillybon Posts: 180
    so it's essemtially sous vide without the costly equipment.
    Yes, it is in fact SOUS VIDE.
  • Little StevenLittle Steven Posts: 26,066
    No it is not sous vide. It is a method of pre warming meat within the "danger zone" to provide a similar cross section of doneness. It is not pasteurising the product. There is no cooking...just warming.

    Steve 

    Caledon, ON

     

  • so it's essemtially sous vide without the costly equipment.


    Yes, it is in fact SOUS VIDE.

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    Sous Vide is the process, not the equipment so it is a version of sous hide. The equipment gets you precise to control over long periods of time. Only difference.

  • billybonbillybon Posts: 180
    No it is not sous vide. It is a method of pre warming meat within the "danger zone" to provide a similar cross section of doneness. It is not pasteurising the product. There is no cooking...just warming.
    Heat the water to your desired temperature and it will cook to that temp if you leave it in long enough. Sounds like SOUS VIDE.
  • Sous vide is the process of cooking under vacuum so it is, in essence, Sous Vide. It's kind of "cheater" Sous Vide at lower temps but it is Sous Vide, none the less.

  • Little StevenLittle Steven Posts: 26,066
    Yes but you aren't cooking/pasteurising

    Steve 

    Caledon, ON

     

  • stikestike Posts: 15,597
    i think we're hairsplitting.

     chief difference is that most sous vide cooks aren't just twenty minute little dips in a water bath.  many are, but the real potential is going much longer at very controlled temps, pasteurizing the food while transforming it. 48, 72 hours.  that sort of thing

    let's face it, hot tubbing with a ziploc is simply prewarming (taking the chill out). 

    if that's being technically sous vide, then climbing a hill is technically mountain climbing


    ed egli avea del cul fatto trombetta -Dante
  • EldeElde Posts: 129
    No it is not sous vide. It is a method of pre warming meat within the "danger zone" to provide a similar cross section of doneness. It is not pasteurising the product. There is no cooking...just warming.
    Sous Vide isn't pasteurizing either.  And *all* heat based cookery is 'just warming', the only difference being how warm your target is.

    But yeah, without a method of positively keeping the food at the desired temperature (typical of Sous Vide cookers), this sounds like a good way to spend way too much time in the danger zone.  It's not a big danger for muscle meat (as opposed to ground), especially if it's subsequently grilled (which, if you get it up to browning temperatures, sterilizes the surface), but it is a risk.  Don't do this with poultry or any other meat you wouldn't eat blood rare.  Don't serve to kids or the elderly or anyone with comprised immune systems and you'll probably be OK.
  • stikestike Posts: 15,597
    edited June 2012
    i really think you wanna look into this, elde, because there's a lot of legit info out there on sous vide, and the logic behind holding food safely at say 135-140 for hours on end.  because much of it is PRECISELY about pasteurizing. 

    as an example, your milk is pasteurized briefly (few hundredths of a second) at a couple hundred degrees.  instantly chilled after heating, so as not to damage it.

    but you don't need to take it that high.  you can spend much longer at lower temps.  but that's a wait that milk producers don't want to have.

    same for chicken.  or any other meat.  you can pasteurize it (and that's the real term) by holding it at lower temps, but for a longer period of time.  lower the temp, longer the holding time. VI posted a logarithmic graph showing this clearly. 

     
    ed egli avea del cul fatto trombetta -Dante
  • Little StevenLittle Steven Posts: 26,066
    No it is not sous vide. It is a method of pre warming meat within the "danger zone" to provide a similar cross section of doneness. It is not pasteurising the product. There is no cooking...just warming.
    Sous Vide isn't pasteurizing either.  And *all* heat based cookery is 'just warming', the only difference being how warm your target is.


    But yeah, without a method of positively keeping the food at the desired temperature (typical of Sous Vide cookers), this sounds like a good way to spend way too much time in the danger zone.  It's not a big danger for muscle meat (as opposed to ground), especially if it's subsequently grilled (which, if you get it up to browning temperatures, sterilizes the surface), but it is a risk.  Don't do this with poultry or any other meat you wouldn't eat blood rare.  Don't serve to kids or the elderly or anyone with comprised immune systems and you'll probably be OK.
    Yes sous vide is pateurising from anything I have read and it's a lot. Pasteurisation occurs quickly at a given temperature in a short period of time. The given temperature is reduced given the environment is unfriendly to new bugs and the time exposed to the warm environement. The only point I am trying to make is that tossing a steak zip lock bag in a warm pot doesn't sous vide make. Not so much for me because I understand the process but to avoid saomebody tossing a chicken in a hundred degree crock pot for four hours and thinking they are good to go.

    Steve 

    Caledon, ON

     

  • billybonbillybon Posts: 180
    Although the SV topic is new to this forum, it has been discussed in depth for the last 9 years at eGullet.org.

    If you want to learn about SV cooking, I suggest you start by reading the posts at:

    http://forums.egullet.org/index.php/topic/116617-sous-vide-recipes-techniques-equipment-2004-2010/

    and

    http://forums.egullet.org/index.php/topic/136275-sous-vide-recipes-techniques-equipment-2011/
  • EldeElde Posts: 129
    The only point I am trying to make is that tossing a steak zip lock bag in a warm pot doesn't sous vide make. Not so much for me because I understand the process but to avoid saomebody tossing a chicken in a hundred degree crock pot for four hours and thinking they are good to go.
    That's pretty much what I was trying to get across - the method described is radically different from commercial or accepted practice sous vide in that the chosen temperature is not sufficient to pasteurize.  It is not safe to hold foods for extended periods at 100 degrees F because that's right in the heart of the danger zone.
  • Little StevenLittle Steven Posts: 26,066

    My point is only that sous vide temps are based on time to accomplish pasteurisation. Its like the Delta T. More time at lower temps accomplish the same thing so long as you don't introduce new harmful bacteria in the process. That is the point of the full vacuum to my understanding

     

    Steve 

    Caledon, ON

     

  • So. Hate to hijack a topic here but have a stupid question...
    I love ribeye and the wife loves filet. I've never been able to get them both med rare on the grill at the same time. One is always overcooked. Can you throw these in the SV at the same time and have both perfectly done and ready for the egg? This may make my sell of the sv much easier...
  • GriffinGriffin Posts: 6,131

    if that's being technically sous vide, then climbing a hill is technically mountain climbing


    I'm a mountain climber!!   =))

    Richardson, Texas

    Griffin's Grub or you can find me on Facebook

     

  • billybonbillybon Posts: 180
    So. Hate to hijack a topic here but have a stupid question...
    I love ribeye and the wife loves filet. I've never been able to get them both med rare on the grill at the same time. One is always overcooked. Can you throw these in the SV at the same time and have both perfectly done and ready for the egg? This may make my sell of the sv much easier...
    SV is the perfect solution to your problem. Both pieces can be cooked med rare in the same water bath. If you bag them separately, you can leave each in the bath for the required time based on the thickness of the cut. 
  • So. Hate to hijack a topic here but have a stupid question...
    I love ribeye and the wife loves filet. I've never been able to get them both med rare on the grill at the same time. One is always overcooked. Can you throw these in the SV at the same time and have both perfectly done and ready for the egg? This may make my sell of the sv much easier...
    Absolutely. That is a perfect use for SV.

  • My point is only that sous vide temps are based on time to accomplish pasteurisation. Its like the Delta T. More time at lower temps accomplish the same thing so long as you don't introduce new harmful bacteria in the process. That is the point of the full vacuum to my understanding

     

    Well.....I cook my steaks at 130 for an hour. They are not pasteurized. You are totally correct that SV CAN pastureize poultry and meats at lower temps over time but that is only one function of the process. There are lots of benefits to it and lots of ways to do it.



  • gdenbygdenby Posts: 4,171
    i think we're hairsplitting.

     ...

    let's face it, hot tubbing with a ziploc is simply prewarming (taking the chill out). 

    if that's being technically sous vide, then climbing a hill is technically mountain climbing


    Yes, terminology can be distracting.

    "Even the longest journey must begin where you stand." often stated as "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

    Hot tub to SV is one step to a thousand miles, etc.

    One of my earliest attempts at SV was even without bags, I came across a mention of oil poaching.  I dropped a beef top round into a bath of oil in a slow cooker, and proceeded to turn it on-off, on-off for the better part of the day. After about 8 hours, the meat was at 150, and covered by its own browned exudate. They inside was still pink, and the meat remained juicy while being very tender.

    With my rudimentary SV set-up, I can pasteurize eggs so I can safely serve them soft and runny. Or I can cook a little higher for an hour or two, and produce fluffly custard-like pillow eggs. Much, much easier than watching a pot of hot water cook some sealed ova.
  •  

    My point is only that sous vide temps are based on time to accomplish pasteurisation. Its like the Delta T. More time at lower temps accomplish the same thing so long as you don't introduce new harmful bacteria in the process. That is the point of the full vacuum to my understanding

     



    Well.....I cook my steaks at 130 for an hour. They are not pasteurized. You are totally correct that SV CAN pastureize poultry and meats at lower temps over time but that is only one function of the process. There are lots of benefits to it and lots of ways to do it.



    You are correct. Going less than the "limits of the danger zone" and consuming the product within that period is sous vide as well.
  • stikestike Posts: 15,597
    but it is not what sous vide was "about".  that's i guess what i'm saying (and i think what you're saying).

    if dipping something in a bag into hot water briefly is sous vide, than a lipton tea bag in boiling water constitutes sous vide.

    you can go get a bag of groceries in a formula one car... but it is designed and intended for extremes.  i can't imagine buying one of those things and never doing anything but a 20 minutes steak bath.  kinda missing the point of the whole thing
    ed egli avea del cul fatto trombetta -Dante
  • but it is not what sous vide was "about".  that's i guess what i'm saying (and i think what you're saying).

    if dipping something in a bag into hot water briefly is sous vide, than a lipton tea bag in boiling water constitutes sous vide.

    you can go get a bag of groceries in a formula one car... but it is designed and intended for extremes.  i can't imagine buying one of those things and never doing anything but a 20 minutes steak bath.  kinda missing the point of the whole thing
    Totally agree. It does do much more and you would be silly to buy one simply for short soaks (even though it does that extremely well too)

  • hoffmandhoffmand Posts: 89
    Is there a legitimate reason for needing the SV water bath at +/- 0.1 degrees if we're just cooking chicken breasts, pork chops, and steaks?  Would a "hot tub"/crockpot/whatever that can keep your steak at 130 deg for 2 hours in a vacuum bag get equally safe results even if it drifted between 125-135deg?
    Cedar Park, TX
  • Is there a legitimate reason for needing the SV water bath at +/- 0.1 degrees if we're just cooking chicken breasts, pork chops, and steaks?  Would a "hot tub"/crockpot/whatever that can keep your steak at 130 deg for 2 hours in a vacuum bag get equally safe results even if it drifted between 125-135deg?
    It would be fine as long as you know it can hold those temps. Although, 10 degrees on a steak is a big difference.

  • Little StevenLittle Steven Posts: 26,066
    but it is not what sous vide was "about".  that's i guess what i'm saying (and i think what you're saying).

    if dipping something in a bag into hot water briefly is sous vide, than a lipton tea bag in boiling water constitutes sous vide.

    you can go get a bag of groceries in a formula one car... but it is designed and intended for extremes.  i can't imagine buying one of those things and never doing anything but a 20 minutes steak bath.  kinda missing the point of the whole thing
    Yes we are saying the same thing. I am considering buying one but I can't see having another big item on the counter. I am leaning towards a circulator

    Steve 

    Caledon, ON

     

  • MudholeMudhole Posts: 26
    A Sous Vide Magic and your crockpot are best friends, I use the Magic with a hotplate and a stockpot, works like champ!
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